Dr. Sasha Soykin joins Chelsea to discuss the "sandwich generation" which describes people caring for both aging parents and their own children. They cover tips for managing stress, setting boundaries, and finding joy in dual caregiving roles.
Dr. Sasha Soykin joins Chelsea to discuss the "sandwich generation" which describes people caring for both aging parents and their own children. They cover tips for managing stress, setting boundaries, and finding joy in dual caregiving roles.
Project Parenthood is hosted by Chelsea Dorcich. A transcript is available as Simplecast.
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CHELSEA: On today's episode I'm so excited to have a special guest, Sasha Soykin, PhD. She is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in treating adults with medical conditions, chronic illness, chronic pain, grief, aging and life transitions, caregiver stress, and trauma PTSD. Dr. Soykin was trained primarily as a health and geropsychologist receiving the majority of her training at various VA medical centers and at Kaiser. Her training has been based in evidence-based treatments including cognitive behavioral therapy, cognitive processing therapy, prolonged exposure, and acceptance and commitment therapy, and she continues to use these modalities with individuals she works with.
She's currently working full time in private practice in the Bay Area, California, and is deeply committed to using evidence-based treatments in helping adults to navigate challenging times in their lives. Thank you, Sasha, so much for being here today.
SASHA: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
CHELSEA: Yes, so we are here. We're going to talk about this sandwich generation. So let's just tell our listeners. What is the sandwich generation and why is it important?
SASHA: Absolutely. Great question. so the sandwich generation is basically decided, defined as the generation where people are caring for both their aging parents and raising their own Children. And so it looks like there's. an estimate of about maybe two and a half million Americans who fall into that category.
So it's really, common for adults to be caring for both their parents, sometimes grandparents, and also their own children.
CHELSEA: Yeah, I think that's definitely, I wouldn't, it makes sense that there's that many people, but I don't know if I would have guessed that. yeah. So what I I'm not quite there in that generation quite yet, but I know it's approaching. And so it's when I was like, what are some of these challenges that really come up for us when we're living that sandwich generation?
SASHA: Yeah, there's so many challenges, and I'm glad to hear that you're not there yet. Chelsea. I think most often it is it's individuals in their forties and fifties. I think of all people in their forties and fifties, basis. And so there's a lot of challenges, unfortunately, that come along with it.
of course, there's the emotional and financial toll. So there's been a lot of studies done on that. And some studies show that about like 15 percent of people in the sandwich generation are providing really significant financial support to both an aging parent and at least one child.
And then about 40 percent are providing really significant emotional and physical support that might include, both sides living with them that might include caregiving.
CHELSEA: Okay.
SASHA: So there's a lot of kind of emotional and financial tolls. and I can go into a little bit more detail if you
CHELSEA: we're, we're talking about, you have your own emotional and physical stuff to take care of. And now we're talking about two different groups that, yeah,
SASHA: And as and as I assume all of your listeners know, being a parent is hard enough and like its own emotional and financial toll. And if you add, really caring for this whole other generation in your life, it's it can be really challenging. It can be really challenging.
CHELSEA: Absolutely. I have to imagine too, just, like you said, because one of the comments, if you have both sides, so if you're with a partner and you both have aging parents, that both need care, depending on where they are, whether they're living with you, which may or may not make it easier.
I'm assuming it, yeah,
SASHA: Totally. exactly. Do you have space? Do you have ability? Do you have the means, right? Or, if you have to support another place for them to live? Yeah, so I, I like to think of some of the challenges. I divide it in my head into five different categories. and so one of the first category is balancing responsibilities.
And so that's, really what it sounds like, right? So like balancing the emotional, the physical demands, caring for both, like your little ones, you're driving them to soccer and this and that, and just trying to navigate everything and their own wellbeing while also like you have parents or your grandparents driving them to appointments, figuring out their needs and hopefully not forgetting yourself in the middle.
It's just a lot to balance.
CHELSEA: Yeah. okay. So yes, balancing is just and probably just recognizing that's not, that's a task in and of itself is that we have to be able to sit there and either map it out or accept that it's going to be a little chaotic and find our rhythm to balancing.
SASHA: Exactly, I think, and we'll probably get there in terms of what to do with it. Acceptance is such a big piece, right? Of really being aware of how much you have on your plate. And that is a lot.
CHELSEA: Yeah, absolutely.
SASHA: I think that goes into kind of the second struggle, which is time management. so it's obvious of why that would be a struggle, right?
But you're splitting your time between not only a number of people, but like different generations. It really can affect. It can affect our personal time, it can affect our own career, if we have a career while we're trying to care give for children and parents, and it can really impact our relationship, with our partner, our relationship with our own friends.
It's, again, a lot, to juggle.
CHELSEA: Yeah, absolutely. What's number three?
SASHA: Number three is emotional stress and burnout. Again, probably pretty obvious, but burnout can happen quite quickly. people can have feelings of guilt, of overwhelm, emotional exhaustion. Just managing so many roles is a lot,
CHELSEA: yeah, that is a lot. Yes, absolutely. I can feel it. We were just talking about it. The stress of it. Yeah.
SASHA: There's good signs to this too. Like I'm giving you all an ad. We'll get through like the challenges, but those too,
CHELSEA: But it's, being realistic to write that there's an also validating, right? Because it's those that are in the sandwich generation right now, it's, more. It can be really validating to hear that. Yes. It's not just you. That's, having to balance responsibilities to, have time management struggles and yes.
And to be okay that you're burning out. Like it's not, that's you are human, right?
SASHA: Of course you're feeling overwhelmed, right? You're feeling stressed. You are hiding in the closet and eating a bag of cookies. yeah, of course. It's just a lot to juggle,
CHELSEA: Yeah. All right. What's number four?
SASHA: number four, is family and sibling discord. So this is between for, you, for your generation with your own siblings,
CHELSEA: Ah, yes.
SASHA: Alan Jane, if there are siblings in the picture, Who's taking care of mom and dad or grandma and grandpa? How is that split financially, time wise, emotionally? that can lead to a lot of disagreements, a lot of family disputes.
hopefully it can also lead to a lot of connection between siblings and a lot of support between siblings, but you never know, you really don't know how it's going to go until you're in it.
CHELSEA: Absolutely. yeah, that's true. Yeah, you're right. It could, it can go either way. And yeah, excited to hear about that one more too.
SASHA: Yeah. Okay. Fifth
CHELSEA: yep. Ready.
SASHA: All right. So the fifth one is navigating cultural expectations. And so this, I'm sure we can all guess that every culture has a very different kind of norm of
CHELSEA: Yeah.
SASHA: how we care for our elderly and our family. And so in some cultures, like that's just, it's just a given, like as my parents age, they're going to move in with me or I'm going to move in with them and I'm going to care for them.
In other cultures, that is not a given.
CHELSEA: Right.
SASHA: So really navigating. Maybe what your culture, quote unquote says you should be doing with what you feel like you can and want to be
CHELSEA: Yeah.
SASHA: be hard to balance as well.
CHELSEA: Yeah. I don't have to imagine. I was just thinking, even if you are on one page, your parent could be on a completely different page of what they expect and not expect. They may not want to live with you or that they are expecting to live with you. Like regardless of, yeah, that can be, different pages.
SASHA: Yeah, I've worked with so many parents, in the sandwich generation who really are shocked by what their parents are expecting or not. Like I've seen it both ways where, parents are like, Oh, of course, like my mom's going to move in with me. I'm going to help take care of her. And then mom is no, I'm, independent.
I don't need this. Like I am going to keep driving forever, even if maybe it's not so safe. Or I'm Keep, and so it can really go either way.
CHELSEA: Yeah. I agree. Yeah, that makes sense. All right. So I think this is where the meat of it, right? So what, how do we cope? How do we thrive? What are your strategies? Let's hear all the good
SASHA: Yeah, let's talk about that. hopefully this can be a little bit helpful, after those challenges. So there's a lot of different strategies. and the main first big umbrella that I want to talk about is. something we hear a lot is self care. and what is self care?
I know it's thrown out so often. but I'm going to throw it out again and say it's so important when you are in the sandwich generation and it's really any way that we can prioritize. Like our own personal well being, so I think of it in different categories, like self care can include physical activities, that means exercise, that means sitting out in the sun, that means taking a bath, drinking water, anything physical and behavioral for our body, I think of relaxation as a big piece of it.
doing some deep breathing, watching a YouTube video that where it guides you in a visualization or a mindfulness exercise, it can be super helpful. there's more of the cognitive or mental activities that could be like, maybe even a distraction, but reading a book, listening to this wonderful podcast, listening to music, watching documentaries, doing a puzzle. There's a lot of ways to engage your brain. And it's so important to take even five minutes, five minutes in a day, five minutes that it might feel like you don't have, but to do this for yourself.
CHELSEA: Definitely. Yeah. I'd love to hear that. It just takes five minutes. We're not asking for you to block off an hour. Yeah.
SASHA: Totally. Like we gotta be realistic, And it's the same with, some other self care things might include like social activities. And even with that, like that might sound like a lot, but it might be sending a friend a text and just checking in, might be grabbing a coffee on your way to picking up your kid from soccer or taking, your parent to the physical therapist.
Like it really something just quick, in between all the things you're juggling, And some other things that I think about under self care are really trying to. Remember what are some of your hobbies that you had that maybe you've let go of, or even trying a new hobby, like something you've never done.
You don't have to be good at it.
Painting, journaling, swimming. whatever it might be, just Setting aside a tiny bit of time for yourself. Very purposefully.
CHELSEA: Absolutely. and I think that. This is, something you were going to get to, but I think of, when I think of my self care, one of the things I struggle with is boundaries, so does that come up
SASHA: Yes. Yes. Like, how did you know? Exactly. Boundaries are huge. Boundaries are. it's sometimes impossible to engage in self care when we're doing so much. So I think one of the biggest again challenges, but things that we can really work on if we're in the sandwich generation and honestly, just as a parent in general, is setting boundaries and taking breaks.
Really talking with people around us, whether it's our other family members, our partner, our siblings, our work, like where are clear limits, right? am I going to respond to work emails after 5 PM or not? Am I gonna, whatever that might look like, really making it clear that these are some of my boundaries and that our boundaries can change and evolve.
CHELSEA: Yeah, that's true, they don't, they're not set in stone.
SASHA: Exactly. Exactly.
CHELSEA: Yeah, I have to imagine that's a tough one for people to do, just to, especially when you're probably feeling, split among already two groups of, two parties, like kids and parents, and then there's your own obligations and requirements, yeah. Yeah.
SASHA: usually people in the sandwich generation are some of the most caring, just loving souls. they really want to be present for their parents, their family. They really want to be present for their children. Again, a partner, if there's a partner involved friends, and the picture and so it's so hard to set those boundaries for yourself and to engage in that self care. Not to sound absolutely cliche, but it's so important to take care of ourselves first in order to be able,
you care of others in our life.
CHELSEA: That's so true. Yes. As much as, we are the first ones, we put ourselves last, but at the end of the day, we cannot provide for both parents and our own children if we are just slowly, fading away.
SASHA: Exactly. Slowly just burning out,
CHELSEA: Yeah.
SASHA: Yeah, exactly.
CHELSEA: So what's another way to then cope and thrive through this?
SASHA: Yeah. So another way, partly while we set boundaries, something we can do is try to delegate, try to ask for help. Probably something else that's really hard for a lot of caregivers in the sandwich generation. a lot of that is like in encouraging people to really seek support. Again, siblings, friends, maybe professionals, whether it's a therapist, whether it's hiring a professional caregiver, if the means allow.
using community resources. There's a lot of free, wonderful community resources as well. so really trying to spread our responsibilities, kinda asking for help. as much as we can.
CHELSEA: Absolutely. Yeah.
SASHA: really takes a village, right? It really does. And that's not a weakness. It's a strength to lean on our village.
CHELSEA: Yes, I know that's that it's so hard to ask for help for so many people, I think, and, yeah, so then, I was to say, you mentioned, so paying for caregiver services, that, but obviously if, it is possible, but,
SASHA: yeah, financially feasible, which of course is a very big if, it's, it can be really a lifesaver for a lot of people. And I really want to stress like that also, it's not a weakness to
pay for, help with that. Just it's not a weakness to pay for a babysitter or a nanny or, someone to drive your kids from activity to activity.
Like we really can't, we just don't have enough hands to do it all. There's a lot of wonderful caregiver services out there. There's in home care support. you can also possibly be compensated as the primary caregiver if, it fits medical need and so forth. So there's to actually get some compensation yourself as well through in home care support.
services. and there's just a lot of options like that. There's live in caregivers. sometimes people think about, is my mom going to move in with me or is my mom going to go to this facility? And some, people, there's a middle ground of a live in caregiver with mom where mom is now, that can be a really great option. So really navigating, it can seem so overwhelming, but navigating what some of those resources are out there.
CHELSEA: Yeah. And then being able to, yeah, he said, just be able to navigate the resources, be opening to finding them, using them. and then I'm assuming having, some sort of, I was saying like, how are you actually communicating with, you're talking about, Like with, your parents or your kids about all of this, Or even siblings, if you're have siblings,
SASHA: it's a lot to communicate and to navigate. Like it's, very much the communication pieces is critical. And I think at the beginning, you with siblings, you probably Yeah. Yeah. Have a handful of conversations, really deciding. Are we trying to navigate this together?
one of us taking charge. really trying to see what hopefully works for everyone involved. some families have had to use mediators if siblings really have a hard time agreeing and that's okay. if you need again an external person to come in and help figure out Who's going to play what role that can be really helpful, but the communication is key about next steps.
And then in terms of your, Family member. Communication is going to really depend, based on, how they're doing. If they're cognitively intact, if they're cognitively declining, you might be communicating in a different way and sharing a different amount of information with them than if they really are aware, but maybe need a bit more physical support or financial support. So it's really depend on, stage of well being. The older adult is then as well.
CHELSEA: And I have to imagine even the age of your children too, how much, Yeah.
SASHA: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I didn't even mention that, moving to that and it can be so helpful to connect, the family across generations. And so that's going to obviously, as you said, really depend on the age of your kids. with super young kids, you're not going to be explaining much or saying much, but even having, your young, let's say four year old, draw a picture for grandma and then passing that picture along.
CHELSEA: Yeah.
SASHA: there's ways to connect and involve kids, even if, for example, you don't want them to know the details, or maybe you don't want them to see, a grandparent declining.
CHELSEA: Right.
SASHA: some people make that choice. So still having connection through photos, through phone calls, through pictures, and creating those intergenerational bonds.
CHELSEA: Yeah. Cause I imagine like you can, if you do have a three or four year old, I'm sure you can connect in the sense like, similar to the, how I make you eggs in the morning for breakfast. Like I need to do this for grandma. Like this is So it's just, yeah, it's finding a relatable way to connect.
Like you
SASHA: Exactly.
CHELSEA: that's such a. wonderful thing instead of having to feel like you have to separate them or keep them. Yeah. Delegate them without overlapping.
SASHA: Thank you. I really would, I often recommend kind of sharing as much as, appropriate age wise with your child because kids pick up on situations, they are intuitive, they know something is going on. And so sharing as much as again, like they can maybe understand or handle at their age.
and that can very much be in the language you just, demonstrated, right? It's like in the same way that I take you to the doctor, I'm going to take grandma to the doctor right now. And so very, really making it not scary for them. So showing them this is a big part of like your values and that you are there for them, but you're also there for.
These other people in the family as well.
CHELSEA: Yeah. And then do you, how else do you involve children? So even if they're a little bit older, are you, are we talking about involving them in the care of our, elders? Are we like, how
SASHA: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's going to very much depend on the family. And again, the state of the older adult, we of course want to be careful about not over involving our children again, in some families, there's no other option. there's just no financial means and we need all the help we can get. But if that's not a necessity, we maybe don't want to have our Children become caregivers at a young age. And so just being mindful of that. But with that said, our Children can absolutely help with certain things, right? can help make those eggs for Grandma can help walk Grandma over to the couch and, turn on the TV for her, right?
And really teach the child empathy and patience and warmth towards family and towards aging family, because for a lot of, maybe young adolescence, they may not quite understand, just turn on the TV. it's just it's why I've told you, 20, 000 times. It's this button, right?
Or it's this. And so teaching them, it's, okay. And we might just have to do this. For grandma.
CHELSEA: great empathy building. Yeah. real time.
SASHA: Really modeling, a lot of empathy, a lot of patience, and a lot of value in just the family connection and being there for family in a healthy boundary setting way. it's the perfect balance.
CHELSEA: Yeah, and that can be, I'm assuming, it could bring, like you said, just bringing the generations closer too. So it's, it might not be, yes, we're going to theme parks with grandma, but we're, it's a different experience of connection.
SASHA: exactly, I think something I really want to share that despite all the challenges of being in the sandwich generation and, how overwhelming it can be and often is. So many, sandwich generation adults share that they're a lot more satisfied with their family life than adults who are not in the sandwich generation.
CHELSEA: Interesting.
SASHA: And so there's been multiple studies that show that there really is actually a higher satisfaction. There's also higher burnout and higher stress and higher satisfaction. both are there because there's, I think it makes sense when we pause and think about it in terms of. The value of really being there for again, our family on both sides, and enjoying our children that how much we value our family and what that looks like.
And again, that's, we don't need to minimize how difficult it is, but we can, we can really kind of experience the joys that could come along with it as well.
CHELSEA: absolutely. Yeah, and that can be the kind of like the silver lining to of just having that satisfaction, that empowerment of being able to do that can help, I'm sure, ease the burnout or help you navigate to prevent the burnout so that you can still enjoy it.
SASHA: Exactly. Exactly. I think, one of those, maybe like a self care tip would be something like engaging in a gratitude practice, it can feel again so overwhelming and nonstop and stressful when you're caring for many people in your home or in your life that really pausing. And very purposely, mindfully acknowledging what you're grateful for that day, can be a really great reminder in that moment when it just feels like too much.
CHELSEA: Oh, yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah. yeah, you can never, yeah, have too many moments of just pausing and being grateful and, setting that intention. Yes.
SASHA: Yeah. The irony is the busier we are, the more we need those moments, right? And the harder it is to take them. So this is, I think this is all of our daily reminder of y'all can take those moments.
CHELSEA: Yeah. And like you said before, it doesn't, we're not, it doesn't have to be more than a minute or two. It can be, or five minutes, but it really, you can really just take 60 seconds to slow your breathing and take that moment to pause.
SASHA: Exactly. Especially with breathing, with gratitude, with, just checking in like quickly checking in with your body, pausing, putting your phone down 60 seconds. Like it's, a huge reset for your body and it's going to do, it's going to do so much.
CHELSEA: Any, yeah. Any last tips or words of for anything else that you know that you can leave any little more souls you can leave with our listeners.
SASHA: Oh gosh. yeah, I think, I kinda, I guess I'll just reiterate that being in the sandwich generation can be so challenging and. So overwhelming. And so I just really want to validate that piece of it first. And also that it can be incredibly meaningful and rewarding as well. And, there's ways to manage it a little bit more successfully with some of the tips we talked about boundaries, self care, et cetera.
And it's never, it's never shameful to seek help and to seek support and to take care of yourself while you're juggling all of this.
CHELSEA: Oh, I love that. thank you so much, Dr. Soykin for taking the time today and, yeah, enlightening us about this is just the really, like you said, two and a half million people are in the sandwich generation. So it's, this is real. This is reality. And. appreciate all of the validating and the tips too for parents that are right here, right now and moving forward and yeah, what they can do on day to day basis.
Of
SASHA: Thank you so much for having me and for, bringing up this, incredibly important topic.
CHELSEA: Okay. Yay. Thank you.