The anonymity of online spaces means that kids are coming across blatant racism while gaming and consuming social media. How does this impact young people of color? Today, Dr. Coor talks with Dr. Rob Eschmann about that and what parents can do to support kids who experience online racism.
The anonymity of online spaces means that kids are coming across blatant racism while gaming and consuming social media. In today's episode, I'm talking with Dr. Rob Eschmann about how this impacts young people of color and what parents can do to support kids who experience online racism.
Project Parenthood is hosted by Dr. Nanika Coor. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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The anonymity of online spaces means that kids are coming across blatant racism while gaming and consuming social media. In today's episode, I'm talking with Dr. Rob Eschmann about how this impacts young people of color and what parents can do to support kids who experience online racism. Welcome back to Project Parenthood. I'm your host, Dr. Nanika Coor, clinical psychologist and respectful parenting therapist. Each week I'll help you repair and deepen your parent-child connection, increase self-compassion and cooperation from your kids, and cultivate joy, peace, and resilience in your relationship with them.
Rob Eschmann is a writer, scholar, filmmaker, and educator from Chicago. He's an associate professor of social work and a member of the Data Science Institute at Columbia University, as well as faculty associate at Harvard's Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society. He's also the author of the new book, When the Hood Comes Off: Racism and Resistance in The Digital Age, which examines how racism is manifesting online, and also highlights the anti-racist strategies young people are using to resist and oppose it.
Here's my chat with Dr. Eschmann.
The following is a rough transcription of the interview.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Hi, everyone. I'm here now with writer, scholar, filmmaker, and educator, Dr. Rob Eschmann. Dr. Eschmann, I'm so glad to have you here at Project Parenthood to talk with us about the intersections of racism, social media, and youth wellbeing.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Nanika Coor: It's really exciting to have you here. I really am interested in this topic.
But before we jump in, can you just tell us a little bit about the work you do as a researcher? And, you know, race, education, social media, resistance, all that stuff.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, broadly speaking, I study you know, black freedom projects. And so, I'm interested in understanding what oppression looks like. I'm interested in uncovering the mechanisms of racism and, and how they, limit our opportunities and, and, and hurt our lives so that we can better fight against them.
Um, and so that's what, what, what my work seeks to do. My book, when the hood comes off racism and resistance in the digital age is a story about the ways that technology changes, how we experience, understand and respond to racism. It's a, it's a data driven book, but also a human centered and story driven book.
I have interviews with over 80 students in five different cities, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, and New York. And then I also, um, draw on millions of tweets over a decade to look at trends and how folks are talking about race online. And I think that I have a long history of doing work that is kind of community and education focused.
And so, I got into education to be, you know, to do work in education reform. And then I, you know, also have done a lot of work around social media and violence prevention. And so, for a long time, I've been thinking about ways that we can improve. Um, youth access to education and then also ways that we can use technology to strengthen the ways that, that social workers or violence prevention workers or community workers, activists are able to engage with young folks and working to, you know, um, increase their capacity to succeed.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Thank you. Um, that's really, it's such, um, so, like, meaningful, the work that you're doing, and it's, it's so needed, right? Like, we're so in this situation right now, especially, I feel like, and, you know, we're going to talk about social media, but it does seem like we're in this particular climate right now, where racism just seems, like, so much more rampant.
I mean, it's always there, but it's just, like, all in your face in this moment, it feels like.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Absolutely. It does seem like folks are getting more comfortable being more open with their racism. And I think that that is, you know, something that you can read more about in the book. But I do think that that has to do with, you know, Trump built his base on social media. And then, um, you know, part of his claim to fame is not it.
Yeah. You know, having this kind of kind, gentle, way of talking about issues of race that hides the racism behind some conservative policies, the way that, you know, many other conservative politicians might. And people like that. And that means now you have lots of Congress folks who are trying to do the same thing.
They're trying to tap into that Trump base by showing that they're not scared to, um, be open about some of these issues, right? You look at what's happening with. You know, racial discussions being banned in schools and that, right. That, that they're worried, they're scared of the ways that we have been centering, um, anti-blackness in a, in a way that is waking folks up to how racism has been operating.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Absolutely. And speaking of young people, right? Like how, what are some of the ways that young people are coming across online racism?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: You know, there, there are so many ways. I opened the book. So, the beginning of chapter one, I tell a story of how the first time I, um, was called the N word was playing video games. And so, I think that is one obvious place that kids may be exposed to these types of things is that when you're gaming online and, and, you know, you have a username that makes you feel anonymous.
You don't feel like there are any real-world consequences. You can't get in trouble from your parents or your principal or your employer. When you're racist online, that is one place that kids get exposed to it a lot. I know with my own kids, um, I have been very careful in terms of how they.
Um, engage in video games that I make sure to go into the settings and make sure that they can only chat with their friends as opposed to being able to hear what anyone they might be playing with in the lobby has to say. But even with all those precautions that I take as someone who's very familiar, right?
With these spaces, uh, my youngest told me about hearing racist language when he was playing on a VR headset that his older brother had bought. I had never used VR at that point, and so I didn't know how to go in there and change the settings. And so, I talked to my oldest son about it. He figured out a way to, excuse me, get around it.
But these are things that that happen even when we do right when we do what we're supposed to try and prevent it, it's still going to happen. So, from video games to comments on YouTube videos to, you know, the content of other YouTube videos, right? Um, that I think that that racism is everywhere.
The evidence seems to support the idea that, that, that, you know, when you spend a good amount of time online, you're going to, you're going to run into people talking crazy.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Absolutely. And for students of color, that online racism, how is it impacting them?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: So, we have research that shows that experiences with online racism have similar negative effects as the experiences with face to face racism. So, it increases symptoms of depression, increases symptoms of anxiety, increases stress. So, these are things that are hurting our health. They're hurting our mental health.
Right, right, really it, you know, it, you know, beyond those kind of health effects, it has the ability to, or it has the potential to change the way we think about the world. And so, one of the chapters of when the hood comes off, I do a case study of an anonymous website on a college campus where students were able to post messages without their names being attached.
And it just turned into a safe place for racist event. It was incredibly harmful for the right. The young folks on that campus who realized that their peers had these negative things to say about them. So, for some people, you know, it right. One of the effects was that it changed their world view that they thought they were in a world that was post racial.
They thought that they around people who are anti-racist. And then they began realizing that no racist Racism is a bigger problem than I thought it was before seeing this racism online. You know, for other people, the effect may be that you lose your ability to, uh, feel safe, that if you know, to avoid racist, when people micro aggress you, you say, okay, that's fine.
I won't. Be with you on the group project. Cause I'll go someplace where I know that I'm wanted and you know, when it's coming from anonymous places, it makes you less trusting of people. Right. So, I think that they're,
Dr. Nanika Coor: from anywhere.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: exactly, exactly.
Dr. Nanika Coor: And, and, you know, one of the things that you're standing out to me also about what you're saying is seeing the online racism. Can bring about these negative health consequences. And some of those things that you were listing, depression, stress, anxiety. Those are the ways that, you know, you might see a lot of young black girls and boys and non-binary folks behaving from a place of anxiety, depression, stress.
Then, and all of that plays into the whole problem, actually. It's like a cycle, a vicious cycle. Absolutely.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Exactly. No, that's exactly right. And I, and people may not recognize where those problems are from. And, this is, there's something else that, uh, you know, I know that this is a podcast about parenthood and you're making me think about my own kids and conversations I have with them, where they've told me stories of students in their class who struggle with their behavior or who do things that they feel are mean all the time. And as they tell me these things, one thing that I want to talk to them about is you never know what someone is going through at home. And oftentimes those type of behaviors that you see in the school, that means that they are, they are in pain.
You know, I make sure that I want, you know, to tell my kids to treat Those kids with kindness and not where you're coming back at them because you know, they act in a certain way. So now, you know, they're being shunned or this or that is I want to make sure that my kids know that person is likely hurting.
And so, treat them as someone who needs, you know, your love and who needs some care. And so absolutely, I think that the kids tend to have externalizing behaviors. When they are dealing with depression or anxiety, and not everyone is equipped to recognize those things and to respond accordingly that you may think, Oh, this kid is a right.
And you know, there's someone who spent a lot of time working in schools. Oftentimes kids are labeled. Oh, this kid is a knucklehead there. They start problems. They want to fight all the time. And you don't realize that there is, there is something that they need that they are not getting. That is the explanation for that behavior.
And so, we don't want to be punitive with them. We need to find a way to get them the supports that they need in order to be happy and healthy, you know, while they're in that building and when they're at home.
Dr. Nanika Coor: And, you know, that same externalizing behavior is what feeds that school to prison pipeline. People just label a child as a problem, rather than a child who is hurting, and begin to just punish everything. And, and not every student is treated that way, as we know. Absolutely.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: that's right. That's right. I think that in, you know, better resource schools, right. And white suburban schools, kids who have those same externalizing behaviors are not labeled problems the way that they might be in poor, lesser resource schools. And so, when you have a, when you have a social worker, who can see the students who, who are acting up, then you have someone who, right, like, right.
That that is a resource that is a, that is allowing that student to get access to care that they need. So not to say that there aren't social workers and, you know, poor black schools, but I think that oftentimes folks are overburdened in schools that don't have as many resources and, and, and so, yes, that there is a big difference in how kids are treated, who exhibit the same behaviors based on the color of their skin.
Dr. Nanika Coor: So, you know, you're talking about the sort of negative mental health and other negative consequences of this online racism. But how is it impacting not only just those students, but I'm just thinking about just society in a larger, broader way. How is all this online racism that you and I are seeing more of, everyone's seeing more of how is it affecting us in the way we are sort of interacting with each other?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah, I think that it is waking us up. I think that it is right. So, the way I talk about it in the book is I talk about racism being masked behind friendly interactions or policies and laws that are not racist. You know, by the letter of the law, but are racist in their effects, right? And I think that racism is being unmasked in online spaces when it is revealing itself, right?
I remember we're so Coming up, having arguments with, with, um, some of my white friends who did not believe that the police engage in violence. Right. This is someone who was growing up in a black and Latinx neighborhood. This is something that we all knew was happening to, right, people around us.
Right. But if you don't see it. You may have an uncle who's a police officer and you say, hey, my uncle's a great person. Like, why are you saying negative things about the police? And for that person, it may take a video of seeing police violence for them to realize, oh, racism is real, right?
This does still happen. And that is a problem. And I don't want to live in a world where unarmed people get shot by the police because of the color of their skin. And so, I think that it can wake people up to the problem, right? I'm thinking about other incidents where this leaked audio of a judge using the n word and right all of a sudden, people like, Oh, maybe we need to review that judge's cases, right?
We don't need to, right? We don't need to have that leaked audio for us to look at the data and know that black people are over sentenced for the same crimes. We don't need to, right? To have those leaks in order to know, right? I think that we, you know, there are other examples of police posting racist.
Things to Facebook and then at least, and you're like, oh my goodness, there are racist cops in this County. We didn't need that to know for, for the folks who know, we didn't need that to know that there are different rates of folks being stopped by the police or charged by the police. But some people do.
And I think that is what technology is doing. It is changing the national conversation. It is leading to kind of a mass awareness of more people. Understanding what racism looks like in 2023 and right, the more people that see it, the more people are going to want to, to, to fight against it. Um, and so I think that is one effect of there being more racism is that racism is losing its invisibility and its invisibility is, is one of its biggest, strongest, best weapons.
And so, I think we're in a moment of discomfort where we're seeing, you know, folks in power be a little bit more open with their hate and. That's scary. That's like the pendulum is swinging, you know, kind of in the, in the wrong direction right now, but I think in the long term that will lead to them, you know, it's like racism shooting itself in the foot that it, right, that they're, they're going to lose that invisibility and then more people are going to see these racist policies for what they are
Dr. Nanika Coor: Yeah. And, you know, what you're doing too is reminding me that while there's this negative part of this online racism and the negative impacts it can have on people, it also is, like, sort of, as you're saying, unmasking something and really pulling back the curtain on something that, as we know, has always been there, um, and now people can, like, really know where it is.
I don't believe in people being doxed and all of that stuff because that's, It's dangerous, but I mean, in a general way, like people are being held to account, you know, um, and I think that that's really important, so I like what you're saying that there's a positive side that, that there is, that it's out in the open easier to fight something you can see.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: That's right. That's right. And, and, and, you know, to go back to the kind of the effects is that I have other students who told me that when they see online racism, they use it as evidence and that they're, they're able to prove to their friends who didn't think racism was real or as prevalent as they were trying to suggest it was.
And they use the online things as evidence of, Hey, here's proof of what I was talking about earlier. Um, so let's not pretend that we're, you know, we're past this issue.
Dr. Nanika Coor: So, what can we as adults…what can we do to sort of prepare kids for the racism they're going to run into online, in these online spaces? Like, what do we do about that?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that we need to in the same way we have to talk about the police. I think we need to have to talk about social media or spending time online where kids need to know the type of ugliness that they have the potential of being exposed to an online space. There's research that shows that when we prepare kids for bias, that's that when they experience racism, it may not hurt as much.
They're able to see that as being a problem. Yeah. Of the world. That is not something. There is nothing wrong with you. When that person mistreated you, there's something wrong with the person who said those things to you. And I think for me that that is what I want for my kids to know is that there's no way I can insulate them from racism.
They all know what racism is, but I want them to know that it is not their fault. And so, I think that's what, that's what we, as parents can do is, is build, in our kids, a healthy and positive understanding of what it means to be who they are. Whether that's being, you know, black, being from a group of color and, uh, right.
And, and, and understanding that, Hey, this means that there's a target on your back. And that, but that does not mean that your life is going to be bad. It's not that being black means that, that you're not going to be able to get a job. It means that there are people who don't want to give you a job.
So again, I think that some people think that that could be scary for kids. My own way of doing these things is I just, I'm just open with them. I didn't have a kind of a curriculum for when, when I wanted to introduce these ideas. I just, seek to keep an open relationship with them. So that they asked me questions that they bring me their concerns.
And when they do, I answered questions, honestly, and spread. I think that they, right. You know, all my kids and they're, you know, I have a 16-year-old, 13-year-old, 11-year-old. And I think that they all have an understanding of right how racism is in the world. But I don't think that it is something that for them, is depressing or makes them feel disempowered.
I think it's the opposite where I'm trying to raise them to be change agents and to be strong, you know, black folks who, are confident in their ability to do what they want in this world and to, you know, be part of a positive change in society.
Dr. Nanika Coor: It's so, it's so important to prepare, prepare kids. And I really like what you're saying about really keeping that relationship with them so that you can be, they will come to you for support. And I talk about that all the time on this podcast. It's the idea about Keeping the connection with your child strong so that when, negative things occur with them, not only do they have some resilience based on your relationship, but they're not resistant to coming to you and saying, Hey, this was a problem or this bothered me or how, you know, how can I deal with the situation?
I've worked with many families where that is not the case, you know, that the parent is like, my kid doesn't tell me anything. I know that they're struggling. I don't know what's going on. But, you know, it's a long game. I feel like those little those those deposits you make in the bank of like goodwill between you and your kid when they're like toddlers and all that stuff.
It like will pay off later down the line.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: You know, you hope so. And I think that every child is different and I've seen children go different ways I think everyone struggles in a different way. I think kids are resilient to, you know, for the most part that kids are able to, to bounce back and to, and to struggle through difficult situations.
That is the most any of us can do. Is to keep a positive relationship with them so that when unpredictable or negative things happen, that they know that you are there in their corner, that you're going to, you know, support them. And I tell my kids all the time, no matter what mistake you make, no matter what happens, I'm always going to be on your team.
I'm never going to be right on the side of trying to bring you down. My goal will always be to, to boost you up.
Dr. Nanika Coor: They're so lucky to have you so wonderful. But I mean, that's such a wonderful sentiment. I mean, so many adults that I know would have loved to have heard that growing up, you know, I think it's like a really, really important message to give to your kids.
So, what are some ways that we can all sort of resist online racism, specifically young people? How can they resist these things when they come across them?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: You know, I think young people are doing it better than we are, to be honest. And that, that's something that, uh, you know, I started this study, um, started this book project trying to understand how racism looks different online, right? And I was surprised to find that that the story I'm more interested in telling is how resistance looks different online.
And this is again, this is not what I went into the study to find, but it's something that came out of the data where young folks, young folks of color. In particular, are using digital tools in order to challenge racism in ways that is abnormal and face to face settings. And so just to give an example here, right, one of the more common ways that we experienced racism, at least interpersonally is through racial microaggressions, which are racial slights, right?
The everyday subtle. Insults that, that, you know, question the behavior, the appearance of people of color and the research says that in face to face settings, the most common way to respond to microaggressions is just to not respond that in most instances, we let those things go. We may talk about them with our friends or family later on, but we don't, we don't, uh, you know, say anything in that moment that it doesn't feel safe to do that.
You think you might lose friends, might lose a job. You don't know, you don't know what to say. You need to process that before you decide that it was about race and not about some other variable. Like I read, I think that that some folks say, Oh, you're too quick to jump to racism. I don't know any black people that are too quick to jump to racism.
We hope it's something that's not racism. And we look for every, um, Other potential variable. It could be before we say, Oh, all right, that was racist. And I think that that, you know, that is, that is the reality and that keeps us quiet. Right? So, the folks of color often feel silenced when they experience racism or microaggressions and online, there's a very different dynamic.
I had a student that told me where he was talking about a racist joke that a white student made online. He said, there's never been an instance when no one responded to a comment like. Where it was the norm for there to be someone who sees this public comment made in a, you know, right, that, that they are always going to see someone had the energy to clap back that day and to respond to that comment and say, Hey, this is problematic.
And, and here's why. And I think that that is, you know, can be empowering for people to see racism be challenged in that way. So, for us to recognize that, hey, um, you know, this is a racism is a, is a problem. Um, and, and I'm glad that someone is dealing with it. Even if I didn't have the energy or the time or feel like I had the capacity to respond to that comment, someone else did.
And that that is stopping the reproduction of racism. It is stopping the ways that silence empowers racist because they're never told that what they're doing is wrong. Um, and so that would be my advice is to, if you have the energy that when you challenge racism, when you respond to people who say or do racist things that you are, you know, being a part of the solution, but then I, you know, I do want to give the caveat that everyone does not have energy to do that, and that is okay for some people.
Resistance might mean healing and, and taking the space to, to step away from conflict. And I think that I fully respect that. And I want to honor that, um, that, that, that everyone does not have the capacity to, to clap back every time that they hear or experience something racist.
Dr. Nanika Coor: mean, somebody needs to pay you for that. That's like a job right there. That's like you would not be able to like sustain that kind of energy over
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. That, you know, that's something that I've found is that a lot of the young folks who engage with these things, the most see that as being part of their identity, that they are activists and that is part of their activism. So, they are intentional about those acts and right. That's it may not be for everyone, but when you do it, it is having a big impact.
Dr. Nanika Coor: It's a huge impact I'm thinking about what you said earlier about the ways in which, you know, you're anonymous online. And that can work in one's favor on the resisting racism side, too. Because somebody who may feel less safe to say something face to face might feel much more able to express what they really feel about um, this thing that happened.
And it's like, I've felt that way. and knows like I've felt that same way, right? Like it just resonates with people and people can get a glimpse of like what this does to people, you know, how it impacts people and the hurt it causes.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: That's right. That's right.
Dr. Nanika Coor: So, you know, as we're coming to the end of our time together, what's your advice just overall for kids who are, you know, dealing with social media and their whole lives are so digital young people. What should they keep in mind just overall, and how can we as parents just be sort of supporters of this whole idea that, we're surrounded by the online racism, but we can also stand against it.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think for parents, it's, it's all about, you know, what we, what we've been talking about, which is maintaining that openness with them and not being punitive. We may have a first instinct or some people may have a first instinct to punish kids when they do something wrong.
Kids may be nervous to tell their parents about what they saw on the internet because they know that it's bad and they don't want their parents to know that they were in that space. And I think when parents hear about those things. Those are the moments where it's important to instead of being punitive, to be supportive and to help them process what they saw.
And the reality is we are not able to control what our kids are going to be exposed to. And just to give an example of that, I worked in a, you know, in the elementary school Chicago public schools and on the school computers, you weren't allowed to go to YouTube. You weren't allowed to go to Facebook.
You weren't allowed to play games, but these kids were on YouTube and on Facebook and playing games. And I was asking them, you know, I want to look, I wanted to go to YouTube on my break too. So, I'm like, how did y'all do that? How did you guys get around this system? And they, you know, had figured out ways to use free VPNs and mirrored websites.
To bounce all around all these professional its things that were meant to keep them off of certain sites. And kids are brilliant and they are going to find a way to do what they want. And I think that that means we should not expend our energy just trying to keep them away from things we don't want them to see, but and spend more of our energy to build a relationship so that they know that when they see certain things that they need to come talk to you about that and how to process that.
So that I think that is my best advice. Um, and then for young people to know, speaking directly to young people here. That, that I think that young folks are spending a lot of time in unmoderated spaces. There are not adults there. There aren't authority figures or there's no institution that's protecting you in many online spaces.
And to know that when you encounter things that make you feel uneasy to talk to an adult that you trust about. What you've experienced, um, that you don't have to navigate that by yourself. And then write that, that, that there are people who care for you, who don't want you to have to figure out how the world can be ugly sometimes on your own, um, right.
That there are, there are people who want to support you.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Absolutely. And I think that what you're saying about not being a punitive parent is really important in that, in that exact respect when they're going to, when, if they're feeling uneasy about something, if something has disturbed them, distressed them, um, they, that's when they need us the most. And if they don't feel like they're going to be able to come to us without getting in trouble, then they will just try to handle those things on their own or with their, you know, similarly, underdeveloped brain friends, you know? You know what I mean?
Like, it's like they need us, like what you're saying, an authority figure, someone who can like help, support, guide, right? And, and they don't really avail themselves of that, of that support if they don't trust you.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a, that's a, you've got it exactly right. And look, that is what I'm doing the best that I can to do, but I make mistakes and learn every day. And so, this is all, uh, you know, this is the journey for all of us.
Dr. Nanika Coor: right. Work in progress, all of us. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, and, um, I've learned a lot, and it's really interesting, and I'm really interested about your book. Tell us a little bit more about where we can find your book and your links and things like that. How can people get in touch with you?
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Yeah. So, when the hood comes off is available everywhere, books are sold. You can get it from Amazon. You can order it from Barnes and Noble. Um, you can get it from your local bookstore. If it's not in stock, you can ask them to order it and it should be there in a couple of days. And then you can follow me.
I have a website, robeschman.com. I'm also on Twitter at robeschmann on Instagram at robecshmann. So, feel free to be in touch.
Dr. Nanika Coor: Okay. We will put all of those things in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us, and I hope to talk to you again another time.
Dr. Rob Eschmann: Yeah. Me too. Thank you so much for having me. This is great.
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That's all for today's episode of Project Parenthood. Thanks for listening, and I hope you found this helpful. Be sure to join me live on Instagram at BK parents on Monday, November 13 at 12:45 p.m. when you can ask me anything. You can get your questions answered in real time. If you have a question for me about parent-child relationships, respectful parenting tips, and parental mental health that you'd like me to cover in a future episode, shoot me an email parenthood@quickanddirtytips.com. Leave a message at (646) 926-3243 or leave a message on Instagram at BKparents, and you can learn about my private practice working with parents living in New York State at www.brooklynparenttherapy.com. Catch you next week.