In this episode, Dr. Nanika Coor speaks with creative arts therapists Queen Ravenden and Rhonda Johnson.
The 2024 theme for Black History Month is Black art and Black artisans. The Project Parenthood podcast will explore this topic in conversations with Black-identifying art therapists about the ways they're using the expressive arts in therapy with Black children, parents, and families to process racialized experiences. In this episode, Dr. Nanika Coor speaks with creative arts therapists Queen Ravenden and Rhonda Johnson.
Project Parenthood is hosted by Dr. Nanika Coor. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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The 2024 theme for Black History Month is Black art and Black artisans. I’ll be exploring this topic in conversations with Black-identifying art therapists about the ways they're using the expressive arts in therapy with Black children, parents, and families to process racialized experiences. In today’s episode, I’m talking with creative arts therapists Queen Ravenden and Rhonda Johnson.
Welcome back to Project Parenthood! I'm your host, Dr. Nanika Coor—clinical psychologist and respectful parenting therapist. Each week, I’ll help you repair and deepen your parent-child connection, increase self-compassion and cooperation from your kids, and cultivate joy, peace, and resilience in your relationship with them.
Queen Ravenden is a licensed creative arts therapist, holistic health practitioner, and spiritual counselor. She is the founder of Mind Body Soul Virtual Wellness Center, where she empowers BIPOC LGBTQ+ individuals, couples, and families to heal, embrace their authentic selves, and live a life full of joy. She is the host of "Healing Through The Arts Podcast" where she shares the lives of amazing professionals who are using the arts to heal themselves and their communities, in an effort to support artists, womxn, and femmes of color on their healing journey.
Rhonda Johnson is a board-certified art therapist and specializes in working with children with behavior issues. During the challenging times of the pandemic, she successfully adapted art therapy methods to be as impactful as possible via telehealth platforms. Working on the belief that creative efforts offer opportunities to heal, she sees her role as supporting and encouraging people to understand themselves more fully through artmaking and other creative pursuits.
In her work with Open Studio Process (OSP), Rhonda provides workshops for teens and adults centered on themes about identity, transformation, and nurturing. The foundation of nonjudgmental, non-diagnostic, supported creative exploration is the basis for her work. Before the pandemic, Rhonda worked at a behavioral health center in Newark, NJ, creating and running their art therapy program for over 50 children and teens. In her spare time, she indulges in Britcoms, knitting, drawing and reading.
Here’s my chat with Queen Ravenden and Rhonda:
The following is a rough transcript of the conversation. For final quotes, please refer to the audio.
Nanika Coor: Hi everyone. I'm here now with two licensed creative arts therapists who work with kids. Queen Ravenden and Rhonda Johnson. Ravenden is a licensed creative arts therapist, holistic health practitioner, and spiritual counselor with 15 years of experience working with children with developmental disabilities, behavioral concerns, and those who've experienced trauma.
She's the founder of Mind Body Soul Virtual Wellness Center, where she empowers bipoc, LGBTQ plus individuals, couples, and families to heal, embrace their authentic selves, and live a life full of joy. Rhonda Johnson is a board-certified art therapist who specializes in working with children with behavior issues the pandemic.
She successfully adapted art therapy methods to be as impactful as possible via telehealth platforms. Working on the belief that creative efforts offer opportunities to heal. sees her role as supporting and encouraging people to understand themselves more fully through art making and other creative pursuits. In her work with Open Studio Process or OSP, Rhonda provides workshops for teens and adults centered on themes about identity transformation and nurturing. Queen, Raven and Rhonda, I'm so glad to have you here at Project Parenthood in the spirit of black history month's 2024, theme of art and artisans to talk with us a little bit about how you've used art therapy techniques to help black kids process issues of racial trauma, and to express feelings around liberation and resistance.
Thanks so much to both of you for being here.
Rhonda Johnson: Thank you so much for the invitation. I can't think of a better way to spend part of this afternoon than talking about one of my favorite things, art therapy, and to apply it to the black diaspora. I just think this is going to be a very exciting conversation. Looking forward to it.
Queen Ravenden: I am also so excited to be here and to be amongst. Black professionals who are helping black families and black children to thrive in a world that doesn't always have that much support for these families. Right? And to be in a room with professional women of color is also very empowering for me right now.
And I'm excited for what comes from our discussion today. Bubbles up.
Nanika Coor: I'm beyond excited to have you here. It's so exciting for the, exactly the same reason you are saying Queen Raven, and just, it's so, it's so lovely to be among women of color who are doing amazing stuff in mental health. I love it. I just wanted to sort of start off by having you both maybe speak a little about how your journey in art therapy has intersected with issues of anti-blackness or oppression.
Whether that's with your clients or during your training time, or maybe even in your own personal art therapy or just therapeutic experiences. Rhonda, I'll start with you.
Rhonda Johnson: Sure. That's a lot because it's really all of the above. Definitely the typical issues that many people of color bond over have happened to me. So. There's so many echoes from like my school experiences of teacher expectations being lower for me. That was the same issue with my own children, and I'm seeing it again with my current clients that quite often children of color are not treated as scholars students. Curious people, future scientists potential writers and poets, but problems and behavior issues and diagnoses. And it's painful actually to see that being just repeated ad nauseum. And there's repair work to be done in our interactions clinically. Gosh, not root out, but to give children particularly children, the ability to kind of view that as something that's outside of them. That's something that they have to take in. I could go on about that, but I don't want to go on too long. But I would also add to that, that within my own graduate training in art therapy, there were challenges and, and some of them I really only have recently come to understand.
And one example that I wanna offer up is I am recently beginning to learn about. The black pioneers of art therapy, which were numerous, which one of them? A man named Cliff Joseph actually helped to establish the Pratt Institute department of Art Therapy. And I got through that entire program to my memory, never having heard his name. And those kinds of things are. So very deeply hurtful and disappointing because there were many, many days during my training when knowing who came before me and what they did and what they offered and what they were trying to create would have really bolstered what I was trying to do and would've offered me some more options.
You know, kind of a, a wider lens. Through which to experience my training. So those are two things that come immediately to mind, but I'm anxious to hear what, what else is here at the table.
Queen Ravenden: Your experience in school. Reignited and reminded me of my own experiences in school as a dance movement therapist and being the only person of color in my entire
class. And how important it is for children of color to be able to work with a professional of color, right? So they are able to see themselves. And that professional and that professional is able to them through seeing them, as you were saying, as the potential of all that they can be and not just as society wants to see them. I also think that many children in black and brown communities, they don't have access to. Licensed creative arts therapist, like that's not even an option for some children don't even know that exists.
In comparison to non people of color who have different opportunities and different supports and things of that nature. So to be able to bring this into those classrooms and show them that there is healing in art and there's healing in music and there's healing in dance and it's accessible to you and, and you are deserving of this and. Having that come full circle to help them feel like a whole loved, respected human being is huge.
Nanika Coor: Yeah. I, I thank you so much for that, both of you. It is so amazing. I just amazing that, that you, the two of you are giving access to a population of people who may not, as you're saying Queen, who may not always get access or have access, or even know it exists, which is why I'm doing this podcast I'm, it's so important for me for people who may not you know, maybe a verbal conversation about whatever issues you may be having is maybe not for you.
To process and to heal. And there are other ways, there are other types of therapy than just talk therapy. And it's important for me, to let families know that there's a lot of different options for them when it comes to healing and mental health. So I wanted to pivot a little bit towards some ways you may have, been working with black folks to make meaning of these racialized experiences and traumas that they may have experienced using art therapy techniques.
Rhonda Johnson: Well, I think, I think all of these questions are interrelated and I, I do think that when, black families come to us and they see us in the position of clinician it's often a surprise and it's often different from what they've experienced before. So, you know, there's that presence that is meaningful. And then I think there's sort of a context within which I work that is, I choose certain music that I like that's, you know, most often classified as world music. That's you're most likely going to hear when I'm playing music, world music or jazz. I. It doesn't always have to be that. It can also be classical, but you're gonna hear Kathleen Battle, you're going to hear miles Davis and kids and adults ask questions, especially, you know, they're so much younger than I am now. They'll say, who is that? And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's Ella Fitzgerald. You have to know who that is. You know there are maps of Africa available for, for coloring in or for reference. In my studio, there's so that sort of context within which I operate is a black space. Right?
Although that can mean many different things. I think that kind of maybe has some resonance for us here within this conversation. And then when I'm dealing with the specific individuals. I wanna be careful to honor the truth of their lives and not judge and make room for all the different ways that their family might be constructed. And be careful to. Be supportive and respectful in talking with them. And I find quite frequently with my clients of color, they're a little bit apologetic sometimes while they, you know, I'll say, tell me, you know, in some of the first sessions, tell me about your family. Tell me who you live with, who did you grow up with? And there's like, well, you know, this is my sister, but my cousin is like my sister because you know, this happened and I. Yeah, well that's what happens in families. That actually happens across the wide spectrum of humanity. But for whatever reason, sometimes they've been made to feel that that's not the right way. You know, that your family isn't as good as, and so I think those are ways in which we can hold families of color. In a way that we would want all clinicians to, but in a way that they're not often able to.
Nanika Coor: Yes. That's so important. And, and what, how are you resonating with this, with this this idea of making a space, for helping your clients, your young clients process within that the space of being a black person, being a person of color.
Queen Ravenden: There is a lot of weight on. People of color and how the world receives you or what the world is expecting of you, the, the stereotypes put on you and figuring out how you can exist outside of this box is something that many children are on the journey of discovering. And I think that creative arts therapy makes space for those complicated discoveries and self-reflections and being able to process all of that, not through words, because how do you speak about these things as a child? How do you speak about microaggressions as a child? Do you even notice what they are? How do you speak about someone calling out you out of your name, you know, how do you speak about somebody looking down on you or expecting less of you? Many times, especially for young people, they don't have the words And Creative Arts therapy fills in that gap between what they're feeling and how they can express it and let it out and process it. And that's why that integration is really important.
Nanika Coor: Yeah, and so. I am wondering for both of you I'll start with you Rhonda. What are some ways you've worked with black children to address some of these issues that may have come up that you know, or how have you seen children working through these things? Through art.
Rhonda Johnson: There are very many ways, so many ways to engage children's imaginations, but as you all were talking, I was thinking of a particular group that I had many years ago now of seven and 8-year-old boys of color. These boys were in a A-P-P-H-P partial hospitalization program for kids who were having behavior issues and couldn't go to school. So you know, they had different issues, anger management, trauma. Couple of them had. Been diagnosed as being on the spectrum and we're having social issues in school. And I had them right after my lunch break and I was kind of at a loss as to what we were going to do and I. I took a bunch of recyclable materials and I made some really janky kind of robots out of cereal boxes and pasta boxes and cardboard tubes, and just odds and ends.
I literally threw them together with masking tape when the boys came in, there were about six of them. I motioned for them to come over to a new, a different table. I had the room set up differently. We're sitting in the round and I called all of them by name, but I added doctor, you know, Hey, Dr. Mike. Hey, Dr.
Joe. Hey Dr. Frank. Hey Shonda. Whatcha talking about? And I said, today, each of you is gonna get a patient and you're gonna work on them. Your, your job is to find out what's wrong with them and see if you can. Help them out and, and make them better. And just like real doctors, you may not actually be able to do it, but I want you to give it a try. You know, sometimes we try things and it, and it doesn't work, but I want you to give it your best shot and ah, oh no, that's terrible. We don't want to do that. So there's a lot of resistance. And then eventually they sat down to work. And I want to tell you, at the end of this session, all of them looked like. Two inches taller. They all had come to the party eventually, you know, through whatever resistance they offered at the beginning. And I watched them invent new things that the robots needed. They needed brains, they needed legs, they needed heart. And of course, what they were expressing was something perhaps they wanted. For themselves or something maybe they thought the world needed, you know, to like help deal with them a little bit better. But I think they were expressing whatever that was something of deep importance to them and getting that opportunity to do so with me projecting this respect toward them. I'm not sure if I could even quantify what all that did. You know, I should probably write about it. But I knew in that moment that art therapy offered the right materials at the right time for the right group. And you don't often get like a magic moment like that, but when you do, it really reminds you what the power of expressive therapy is to go through those circuits in our brains that don't need us to intellectualize and articulate what we're feeling. It just, it comes out through your hands, it comes out in your body, comes out in your posture, and it comes out in the product that you create. And so that, that sticks in my memory as a teaching moment to me about what I do. Yeah.
Queen Ravenden: I have a specific client that comes to mind. This was a young child, I would say maybe five or six years old, and they had been experiencing behavioral difficulties having a hard time sitting down. Hitting other children throwing things explosions of anger things along these lines. And in previous programs that this child went to, when they met with therapists, they would say, oh, you had, you should send this child to. A behavioral therapist, right? Because they're gonna see like a, BA, like they'll see the behavior, you know, they'll make adjustments to, you know, re rewards and, you know, that's gonna help the child to adjust their behavior and then to receive the outcome that you desire. That didn't quite work out for this child. And so they said, let's try something else. What about dance therapy? Which was new to this program. I was new to this program, and there's something very beautiful about art therapy and creative arts therapy and dance therapy because there is space to ask the why. Not just we wanna change the behavior, but why is this behavior here, why is this occurring?
And having this curiosity and letting curiosity. Guide the session together. And originally when I worked with this child, we went right into a concept called mirroring that we do in dance therapy. And essentially you are meeting the child where they are and reflecting their behaviors back to them. So. Something that they would do, like throw themselves on the floor and like start crying. Other professionals might say, you know, you know, stop crying or stand up, or You're fine, or things like that. I would also throw myself on the ground and start crying and whiling on the floor, and they're looking over at me like I'm crazy.
Because they're like, you're a grownup. Whatcha doing? then it also gives them space to say, wait, am I looking? I'm looking like that. That's what I'm doing. And then this becomes a game of, well what else can I do
that's kind of funny and, and outburst and you're not gonna get upset with me? And oh, and that helps to build that relationship of I'm not here to kind of correct you.
I'm here to listen and be present with you. And their behaviors began to shift because they started to feel. Attuned to, like they're receiving positive attention, right? They're receiving positive feedback. They're beginning to see themselves as others see them as I see them, and there was a desire for love and attention that turned out most of these behaviors were just for attention and not being heard, and not being understood, and not, I mean, everyone needs love. Especially children, but everyone needs love. And he was doing these actions because he wanted love. And so instead of coming into the room and falling on the floor, he would come into the room and take my hand. And that's like when you would see the shift and like, guide me over. Here's what I wanna do.
Let's do it together, as opposed to I don't wanna do anything. Resist, resist, resist. Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. That was a really healing aha moment the space of creative arts therapy and working with children who have been told, you're bad. That's bad. And telling them, no, you're good. You're good. You're, you're a kid. You're learning. We make mistakes. We're just people. And that's okay.
Nanika Coor: Yeah, it's so important what you're saying. I'm hearing from both of you is something that I find, I mean, this is the reason why I do this podcast at all parents. Just this idea that, you know, queen Raven, and you said that sometimes kids are doing things for attention, right? And first of all, a a as if that's a bad thing to want attention. And, and also sometimes we can change that word, right? If we change it to like connection or relationship, right? Because attention implies like you want someone to like, interact with you and, or look in your direction, see you, hear you, right? Sort of acknowledge your existence in some way, right?
And, what's so wrong about that? What's so bad about that? To want to be in relationship with someone, to want someone to connect with you. Right. And sometimes when, when parents can, reframe this idea of wanting attention as if it's a bad thing to like, oh, like maybe this child is looking for some connection and they're asking for it in a way that is grabbing.
Right. And or, you know, this, this way of mirroring, or even Rhonda as you are saying you just sort of, do you think you should do with these robots? Like what do you think should happen? Like this idea of, of. Of this curiosity that you're, that you're mentioning Queen Raven and like this, this way of, if I just trust that this child knows what they need or want in this moment?
That they have something to say. That that, that whatever it is they are trying to express is of some importance. And just because they are younger doesn't mean that they are somehow. less significant than, than we are as adults. And I think that's, that's a major tenant of the kind of parenting I encourage and certainly what I hope to communicate with this podcast overall.
Even when we bring this back into the idea of processing racialized experiences in our lives, right? Like those things that are living inside of us. So how do we know that, know, that this child who is having big, explosive moments is not responding to big hurts in their life? How do we know what, what happens inside of.
A, a boy child of color who is in a partial, partial hospitalization, who someone is referring to as a doctor when they see doctors all around them. And the kind of respect those people get. What does that mean about me? If someone refers to me in this way? And, you know, I, I just think about I can only imagine that there's, at least, if not all of those boys at that table doing that robotic project, at least one of them probably never forgot that someone referred to them as doctor, and that probably changed their lives in some You like, what does that mean? I could do right in my life if someone could refer to me this way or. Or res have respect for me, show respect for me in some way. What does that mean about who I am in the world? I'm a person who's deserving of respect, actually. Right. That's a big thing for lots of kids who, there's so many kids of all the.
Of all of the cultures who have, have never really been treated with and it makes a big difference. And it just also, as you all are talking, it just warms my heart to know that there are children out there who get to have you as their therapist. It's very exciting. So know, again I'm wondering too about ways that you've seen art therapy help connect children to themselves potentially their ancestry, their own power as a black person, their own their own identity as a black person.
I'm wondering if you have in your art therapy travels, if you have, have seen moments like this where has been connecting to self in some way for these children of color.
Rhonda Johnson: I think, well, I'm thinking on what Queen Raven then said about asking, having space to ask the why and being curious is just the way to lead with children and really with all people. You, you know, what, what can you do with them? What kind of work can you do with anyone? What kind of relationship can you have with anyone if you're not curious about them? I don't know. I, you know, I struggled to think about this question. Connecting to their history, their ancestry. All I can think of is their future and how they project themselves forward. That comes from. Place. So when I ask a kid to imagine themselves as a superhero, I think when they invent their magical whatever, they have to express their superpower. They're drawing on whatever that ancestry is. And I'm here to help them celebrate that. And you know, when, kids are struggling to like make a meaningful connection with a parent that they've been estranged from, and maybe that parent is from a different country or a different culture from, from the parent they've spent time with, you know, to, to give them permission and encouragement. Find out about that country. Find out about that culture, ask questions. Be curious yourself about where everybody came from in your family and help them draw strength from that and understand everybody's family as a cool story. Everybody's family came from somewhere and isn't that marvelous? And I'm here to celebrate it with you. We're gonna make something that maybe means something for that culture, or we're going to invent something. Maybe you want to talk about a world that you might create. What might that look like? What, you know, if you have, I've given kids, you know, like, here's your planet. Tell me what landform are on it. Is there any water? Make it up for yourself. You know, when they do that, they're drawing on everything they know, whatever that is. And maybe this isn't a direct answer to your question, but that's, that's what resonates with me from my, from the work that I've done so far. Yeah.
Queen Ravenden: One of the easiest ways to connect children with their culture. And their ancestors is their music. And I remember one group, I had all the children pick a song that made them think about their family or pick a song that reminds them of the country that they understand their family to come from, and then they bring that in and then they're able to all enjoy and take in this music and take in the culture.
And then. That gives the children permission to start talking about it and to say like, this is what this means to me. This is what family means to me. This is what Africa means to me, and being open to whatever comes up. But that was one of my favorite activities and connecting the two with children.
Nanika Coor: I love that.
Rhonda Johnson: I am so stealing that right now.
Queen Ravenden: Take it. It's all for sharing. All of this is for sharing.
Nanika Coor: You are reminding me
I, my own child's class recently. Their whole, this whole year has really been about culture and your own culture and what is, what do you understand to be your culture and doing a lot of these like culture shares and bringing something in sharing something with the class, with the community that you understand to be about your culture.
A lot of these things were music. A lot of these things were food. A lot of these things were like braiding. It's intricate braiding of hair, you know all kinds of amazing things that these kids were teaching their classmates to do and know about. And this is, and that's really reminding me of this, this idea.
And also, Queen Ravenden. I do remember in my own fifth grade us all having to bring a song in, like what is a song, you know, that is, I don't think they connected it to culture. It was more like, you know, what's your favorite song? And I remember I brought a Stevie Wonder song Jam in. I was very excited, but it was my favorite song at the time and I remember.
You get, you got to play the song for the class. And there was an actual record player in the class. I'm very old and, and it was, I brought in a vinyl record and we played it in class and, but it is so fun when you're a kid to share. Something, some part of you with other people in that way It is, it means so much.
I mean, it's a memory that I will never forget sitting in that class, like watching all these kids listen to my song. It was like very, it was, it was, it meant so much to me at the time. So I can imagine what it's like to be able to have that actual connection of like, what, what is about my, what the music is about, my particular culture or speaks to me about my culture.
I love that. And what you're talking about, Rhonda, the planet. Like what, what would be the planet you would create? What would be the world you would create? Because once again going back to your robot. Activity, sort of, you know, adding in the things you feel should be there or what you wish would be there, right.
Like this idea of what you think is needed in a world. Right. And I I love that. I love
These are such, and all of the things we're talking about because as we come to the end, I'm, I'm was thinking of asking both of you, you know, like what are some things that parents can do at home that are creative things that they might bring these kind of art therapy kind of.
Things into their homes or what, what are one or two things, but we're talking about some things that parents can do, right? We're talking about these ways. Like what are some songs that you
that you like, you know my kid has an ongoing playlist I'll ever, you know, so many songs are being added to this playlist.
We'll be in a grocery store and it's like, what song is this? And I'm so glad I have Shazam so I can, and this to my playlist mama. You know, all of these cool things that, can do, but I'm wondering if there's something we haven't mentioned yet that, that something sort of you know, I'm even thinking about your mirroring.
Activity queen Raven, you know, this idea of just, you know, having, having your child make movements and you're just sort of following them. Right? That's something that sort of popped into my mind, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that I, I don't know, queen Raven, if you have children, but I know Rhonda, you mentioned that you did, and I'm wondering if there's anything that you wanted, you know, that you found, that you found yourself doing with your children that was creative and but also something that, you know, maybe was accidentally sort of processing of in inner, inner things, you know, and also fun.
Rhonda Johnson: How I wish I could look back on my parenting as a model for what I wanna offer to other parents, but I'm a therapist, right? So for 50 minutes at a time, I'm completely capable of connecting with children and coming up with these great ideas. Parenting of necessity, being a 24 hour a day, seven day a week gig. It doesn't give parents a lot of time for. Really like dialing in on what the perfect activity would be. So I always hesitate to offer techniques, but I do defer to parents as being the experts on their children and knowing, like, you know, with your child, music is a way in with other kids it might be food and cooking. With other kids, it might be gardening, it might be looking at urban landscapes, people watching, or insects, you know, your way in. The thing is to make sure, to make time, to be curious about what your kids are interested in and show them that you value that in them. So it doesn't have to be like. Going out and buying materials. It doesn't have to be, it can be building a robot out of cardboard tubes. I mean, I never would be without a cardboard box to deal with children, because they will take whatever toy was inside, cast it aside, and it's the box. The box has so much more potential. So I guess keep it simple, you know? And. Make yourself available to see them and to participate with them. There was a thing going around many years ago called the Cardboard Challenge, where you could take cardboard and you could paint it and you could use masking tape and staplers and whatever. And you could make a rocket. You could make a house, you could make a car. The key thing too was it's a family activity that the two-year olds can do and the 7-year-old, and you know, you could do it for 20 minutes or 40 minutes, but you can also say, Hey, we're making salad. Can you cut up these tomatoes? You know, maybe that's not the thing, you know, with a dull knife, what can you cut with a dull knife? You know, can you hack these cucumbers? You know, can you participate in what I'm doing? Tell me a story or tell me about your day. I don't have a specific thing. I have to leave it at that, but find these little opportunities because while you're doing those things, kids will say the greatest things to you. They will say, you know, I really like this mommy. Or you know, I've been thinking, and they'll actually sometimes tell you what they've been thinking, which they won't tell you if you ask them, how was school today? You know, it's just a curiosity and 10 minutes of eye contact when you're not on your iPad, when you don't have your phone in your hand. When the television is in another room, preferably, those are magical moments that even though when you have small children seem like will last an eternity, they're gone before you know it. Yeah. And if you build that, you'll also most of the time be able to talk to your teenager.
Queen Ravenden: One of my favorite things to do. After doing the most with children, because they like to do the most, I like to encourage whatever energy they're at, I'm meeting them there. So usually if they're up, I'm up here and we're up in this high energy for so long, and at some point you're like, okay, we gotta bring it down. Right. And so this activity is great for anytime you really wanna help your children kind of regulate themselves and help to bring their energy down, be able to self-soothe, and self relax and, and things like that. And it's very simple. I encourage having like a soft space, so making a quiet space and they can feel free to make it too.
That might have blankets, it might have pillows, it might have like one of their favorite soft. Toys and you as a grownup, you are invited to turn off the lights, right? Maybe you have a flashlight with them and they can use the flashlight because early on, children start to associate dark with night and nighttime's like when you fall asleep and it's time to be, be, calmer.
And then, you know, babies in the crib, they're sleeping, things like that. So they associate dark darkness in a room. With like being calm and finding calm. So if light is day and excitement in doing things dark is associate with night and a little more calm. So you're allowed to turn off the lights. You're allowed to put on some nice music, and I always recommend having a toy that lights up. So maybe it's like a star projector and you have like stars around your room. Maybe it's like a little lamp that like has little floaty things in it that that kind of like rise and fall as you move them. Maybe you give.
The children a soft instrument, like a rain stick or like a like a storm drum, like a thunder drum or something that's really soft and soothing so that they can play along with the music, essentially. These are all different tools that you can use during this time of relaxation. It doesn't have to be a half hour long.
This can take five minutes, 10 minutes, just to kind of have that ah, moment with them. Because ultimately, we want them to be able to grow and find them on their own, but for a while they're gonna rely on us to help regulate those emotions and feelings. And so taking that moment, like you said, to not be on your phone or iPad to pause and to settle in ground and soothe with them, it's gonna be really important as they continue to grow and develop.
Nanika Coor: I really love this, what both of you're saying. You know, I talk about this so much and this idea of just being present with your child for some, you know, short period of time. It could be five minutes, it could be 30 minutes, it could be an hour, you know, but even just the five minutes of. As you're saying, you know, you are not distracted by other things.
You're com, you're a hundred percent available for them for, for some period of time. And I love this idea of grounding. I love this idea of just getting to know them. Right. You know, if, and there's there what you were talking about, Rhonda, there's a parenting. Approach called hand in hand parenting, and they have something called special time, which is exactly what you're saying.
So you, you sort of set a timer for whatever amount of time you've got, five minutes, 10 minutes. And for that five or 10 minutes, it's like whatever your child feels like doing for five or 10 minutes. And you're following them, you're following their lead. What are you into, right? would you like to do?
Would you like to jump up and down on this bed for five minutes? Would you like to, you know, read a book for five minutes? Do you wanna draw pictures for five minutes? Do you wanna cook for five minutes? You know, whatever it is so there's that piece. But I also love the other piece. I get this a lot with people who have toddlers.
You know, I've got all these things I need to do. How am I supposed to do that and have this three-year-old? It's like invite them into the kitchen to to hack at the tomatoes with you. That's what you do. You give them a piece of lettuce and you
that they are helping you give them a sponge and they are helping you clean.
I mean, are they really cleaning? I don't know. But the idea is they're with you. They're, you are modeling, taking care of your home. They're helping, they love to help when they're young, you know? My kid used to love to sweep, you know, we'd give the broom and I, I don't know if anything was really getting swept, but it's like I get to hold the broom, like adults get to hold the broom.
And it was very exciting. And, you know, it's just, it's, sort of like just inviting your kid into world of all the adult things you need to get done in a day and. You know, you don't necessarily have to sit them in front of a screen while you do that. You can bring them along with you and you can, and they can sit by you and you can give them the sponge and they can, you know what, with my kid look like one minute of cleaning and the other, you know, like I, what cool things can I do with the sponge?
You know what I mean? Now I'm stacking it on something. Now I'm doing some other things with it, but that's fine, you know? And I think, you know, I really love this idea of just how can you connect with your child in just regular, everyday ways? And you don't necessarily need to go out and buy anything exciting, but it is about being curious about your child.
What do they seem interested in? What do they seem like they're wanting to do? You know you're saying, you know, the, the box is the more fun thing than the toy and sometimes. Toy is they will use it in some way other than it was designed to be used. And what if you just let them do that? And you know, what if this toy is now this other thing?
You know, and I, I mean all of those things, right? Just sort of seeing who your child is and what they get up to when they're not being interfered with. It's always something that I think is so interesting and when they're not being sort of directed and told what to do, which, you know, ends up being so much of
life as young people.
I wanna thank you so much. Both of you for being here and just having all these little things percolating. I'm sure our listeners are thinking about all the, the sort of things that maybe they thought were just regular everyday things that are like, oh wow, these are like moments of connection I'm actually having.
They're not just like, you know, just rote moments of the day. These are like, you can take so many opportunities to be with your child, and with these moments that you have with them and these moments of grounding and making these little routines that actually they can take with them into their life, you know, these times that you spend with the rains stick in the dark, in your flashlight are moments they carry forth with them in their life.
And it's like, oh, these are, I will create in my, you know, my dorm room, my down space over here. You know what I mean? Like, these are things that carry forth with them in their life. And, I think it's so important. There's so many ways to be creative with kids, and I, and I also am really grateful for both of you being here to let parents know about other kinds of therapy their children can be involved in.
If they feel like they, if it's important for them, for their kids to have therapy, you know, there's so many different kinds out there, and I really am so excited to talk about art therapy this month just because I really just do think it's something that doesn't get enough airtime. So I'm so glad that you all were here to, to give some airtime to art therapy.
Thank you so much for your time and sharing your expertise with us.
Rhonda Johnson: It's been really fun to be part of this conversation.
Queen Ravenden: And to share the creative arts therapies with the world and with your listeners. It's such an honor. Thank you so much.
Rhonda Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Nanika Coor: Before we totally end, let each one of you just, you know, give a little shout out for how people can find you if they're interested in working with you or learning more about your work. You know, how can, how can people find you?
Rhonda Johnson: Well, if you're interested in reaching out, I have a webpage, Drawyourselfout.com and you can reach me through there. Always happy to answer questions about art therapy.
Queen Ravenden: Yes, if you're looking for healing services for yourself as an adult or for children, you can reach out to me on my website, which is mindbodysoulvirtualwellnesscenter.com.
Nanika Coor: Thanks so much. I will make sure that those are also in the show notes. And once again, thanks so much you all and I'm very grateful for your time here today.
Rhonda Johnson: Thank you.
Queen Ravenden: Thank you so much.
That’s all for today’s episode of Project Parenthood—thanks for listening, and I hope you found this helpful! Be sure to join me live on Instagram @bkparents on Monday, February 26 at 12:45pm for my monthly “Ask Dr. Coor” and get your questions answered in real-time!