How much do your kids need to know about sex?
It can be difficult to know how to talk to kids about the proverbial birds and bees. Where do you start? How much do you tell them? What do they need to know? In this episode, Dr. Nanika Coor talks with health educator Justine Fonte to get some answers.
Project Parenthood is hosted by Dr. Nanika Coor. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
Find Justine Fonte at justinefonte.com, Twitter, or Instagram.
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Hey parents! You're listening to the Project Parenthood podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nanika Coor, clinical psychologist and respectful parenting therapist. Each week, I’ll introduce you to the same respectful parenting practices that I use to help parents repair and deepen connections with their children. You’ll get tips for cultivating more parental self-compassion, more cooperation from your kids, and more joy, peace, and resilience in your relationship with them.
In today’s episode, I’m talking to health educator Justine Fonte. You’re going to hear about conversations you can have with your kids that lay a good foundation for your child’s developing sexual health. Stick around till the end for Justine’s tips on managing the parental nervousness that can come along with initiating conversations with your kids about sex and sexuality.
Justine Ang Fonte is the child of Philippine immigrants and a nationally-recognized intersectional health educator, speaker, and consultant. She received her Master's in Education in Teaching from the University of Hawai'i and her Master's in Public Health in Sexuality from Columbia University. She has been featured in The New York Times, CNN, The Atlantic, Business Insider, NPR, and USA Today for her notable teaching career in sexuality education and according to a Buzzfeed list, one of 13 sex educators teaching people what they really need to know when it comes to sex. On Instagram, she's known as "Your Friendly Ghostwriter" composing the texts you avoid sending about setting your boundaries.
(The following is a rough transcript of the interview.)
Nanika Coor:
I wanted to start by giving our audience just a little bit of a snippet of what it is you do. Like what is intersectional health education and why is it important?
Justine Fonte:
I teach health in schools and I do so in an intersectional way, which means when I talk about mental health, sexuality, or health at every size I'm taking into account different identities and how it impacts our ability to either experience health or not be privileged enough to be able to experience health.
NC:
Hmm. So when you say experience health, talk a little bit more about that.
JF:
So I can talk to them about what it means to be gay, what it means to be trans, what an intrauterine device is or what the birth control pill is. But I would just be giving them a vocabulary lesson if I didn't do it intersectionally, which would talk about how their identities which could include their culture, their religion, where they live, their socioeconomic status might impact their ability to actually obtain, that, you know, tool or that care, or be able to be out and free and safe as a person who's nonconforming. So it's really taking that next step, going beyond the vocabulary lesson and talking about the systemic oppressions that prevent us from being able to be our authentic selves, which in turn allows us to be healthy.
NC:
I get it. I get it. That's so great. That's something that, you know, you just don't find in school normally when you're getting sex ed growing up or anything like that. There's not, this way of taking into account the different ways that people have access and the different identities that people walk around in the world with.
JF:
Absolutely.
NC:
How can parents lay a good foundation, sexual health wise when kids are younger, you know, in that sort of zero to five year old age. What's a good way to start laying that foundation that you're talking about, where it sort of takes into account that we don't know who our child is gonna be yet, but we wanna, you know, sort of clear this path where they know that they can be anything that they need to be, and also, how to be healthy, sort of laying, laying that groundwork for what the healthy choices are.
JF:
Yeah. My overall philosophy in, you know, from the womb to the tomb and talking about sexuality topics is that we wanna center all of our conversations and our parenting on the topic to be about safety, affirmation and joy. And in, you know, zero to five, it really focuses on body agency, which includes normalizing how we talk about body parts in that we don't give it a nickname. We actually call genitalia for what it actually is. This empowers and equips our young people to be able to assert their boundaries better when they actually know what these words are. And it actually, allows them to, be less vulnerable to sexual predation. So it's extremely important that we talk about these things early on, which isn't just about, you know, knowing the right words for genitalia, but also teaching them what body boundaries are.
And in zero to five, I talk to them through the language of a body bubble. This body bubble is yours. You own this, and you have a say in who gets to enter it, if anyone at all. And so this body bubble is really where they are safe, where they feel comfortable. And the only people that may come into that space is a trusted adults that they, can always count on. That brings them to safety whenever they're scared or feel like something is wrong. And those are the only people that they would allow, to enter that space. Maybe that's a babysitter that's helping them change. Maybe it's a parent that's helping them. You know, bathe maybe it's a doctor who needs to check something, but these are people that they feel comfortable with and know they can be safe around.
And then the last part with zero to five is really teaching them that when it comes to their private parts, specifically their private for a reason. So simply put, private parts are private. And so when they start executing those body bubble, you know, guidelines that they've been taught and modeled in their own family, they know that that also applies to their private parts. So anytime they need to scratch, they need to change out of, or into, or any of those private parts are exposed. It has to be done in a private place, like a bedroom or a bathroom.
NC:
When people ask or when children specifically ask, you know, why are these things private? Why can't I just invite all my friends into the shower with me? Why can't I just, you know, when, when people are sort of maybe open with their body bubbles, right? And then a parent has, potentially, some trouble with how open the child is with their body bubble. Like maybe the child is saying, I don't mind all these people in my body bubble and the parent is having a harder time, like with that whole privacy issue.
JF:
Sure. Well, so when we talk about private parts, it means that something is coming inside and outside, and usually it's some type of liquid or maybe, something a little bit, you know, more concrete, like if we're talking about poop, right? So when we talk about bathrooms, we talk about why there are, you know, barriers in stalls, right? We talk about why there's a locked door. We talk about in bedrooms, right? It's places where people are resting. And so in the context of a zero to five year old, if they're asking, you know, why is this one private versus these, these other body parts are public or ones that I can see. It says, well, when you walk around, you notice, you don't see anybody else's, you know, vulva, or you don't see anybody else's penis, because those are private parts, but maybe you'll see someone's cheek, you'll see someone's wrist. And those are public parts. And it's because they don't have holes in them where things can go inside and outside of. So that's why even when you cough, we ask you to cover your mouth, right? When you sneeze, we ask you to cover your nose, right? And so these things are protecting us from things going inside and out, but really beyond that, a zero five year old doesn't need to know anything else that goes inside of those spaces.
NC:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. At that end of the four to five, the zero to five, age range. Sometimes there's a lot of experimentation with kids and, just being curious about their own body, does my body look like that other person's body? What do they look like without clothes on? What are good ways for parents to help children through that sort of era?
JF:
I think, you know, when it comes to home rules, it really depends. If parents are comfortable with their, you know, six year old walking around naked, coming out of a shower and whatnot, that's their prerogative. That's totally fine, but it's reminding them, this is something that we can do in our house, because this is our place, right? But if other people who don't live here are present, or you are at somebody else's house where it's not your own, these are private parts. And so every family has different values and different rules. And it's important for us to follow those rules, when we're not in our own home.
NC:
So that's a great way to lay the foundation, right? What's happening in our home, giving children the correct anatomical names for everything, helping them understand what's private and what's public. When they get a little bit older, now we're talking about school age, kindergarten, through sort of sixth grade, what are parents trying to impress upon children at this, at this age?
JF:
A lot of stuff. I guess when we were, you know, talking about bodies that, you know, that bodies are gonna look different, especially as, you know, they hit this stage called puberty, which is gonna be, you know, common maybe as early as eight years old and carry on for a few years, these changes are, are totally normal. They're expected to happen. And knowing that, you know, your parents went through that very experience makes them really an expert to be able to help you through some decisions that you might be wanting to make about maybe where your hair is growing, where it wasn't growing before, or how to treat, you know, pimples that might be coming up on your body versus just deciding to pop all of them.
But just as your body is growing in Heights in, you know, feet size, right in maybe now needing contact lenses or glasses. So are the rest of your body, because of, you know, hormones that are now being triggered that always lived in your body, but wasn't really turned on until recently. So a part of those physical changes, comes also some extra responsibilities on how you take care of its hygiene when it comes to odor, when it comes to bathing, when it comes to possibly the reproductive aspect of it. It also is gonna entail an emotional change as well. People who, you know, you were friends with before, maybe you don't fall, you know, into the same category of interest anymore, and that's okay. Or maybe friendships that you have, maybe it's, some of them are turning into a crush or someone that you really like and wanna spend more time with.
And so informing them of all of these things being completely normal and that their body is really preparing to be a reproductive adult, whether or not they want to reproduce is just its body, going through the motions of starting those stages of adolescents. But the biggest fear, you know, especially amongst sixth graders, is that they're not normal because they don't see private parts because they're private. And they're seeing all these, you know, vast changes occurring and thinking there's something wrong with them. So they really just need affirmation and, validation that their feelings are common. And so are the changes that their body is going through.
NC:
You know, as you're talking, you're making a really good case for sort of preparing a child beforehand, you know, puberty does start so early and, you know, it could put potentially be that these hormonal changes are starting around eight or nine. And so it sounds like it might be helpful to with a seven year old or, you know, an early eight year old start talking to 'em about like, these things could start occurring, so they don't think that they're so abnormal.
JF:
Absolutely. I think what parents, you know, can use as opportunities for teachable moments is talking about what's happening to them. I mean, I remember, you know, my mom having her period when I was still, when I was very verbal and aware, but I just didn't know why this thing was happening to her. Right. And so I would see these things in like the, the cabinet of our bathroom. And I was like, what are these like big pillowy diaper looking stuff. Right. And I am not gonna have my period for many years, but that's an opportunity for a parent to be like, yeah, you know, you see those things underneath the sink. That's something that I have to use because it means that I'm on my period. That's something that you're gonna experience too, but probably not until you're around blank, years old.
So you're already, even if it's not anywhere close to them being eight years old, you're just normalizing it by things that is happening to your own body. Or other people in their life. You don't avoid the question of like, what's going on with that person's tummy when it's big. It's like, oh, that's a pregnant person. And you know, that's an opportunity to talk about what it means to be pregnant. Even if your child is nowhere close to becoming pregnant, you don't, you know, teach them how to cross the street for the very first time when you're right about to cross the street for the very first time you're giving them so much ample time to let these things process and marinate and normalize so that when it happens, it's less of something that they're scared of or something that they fear is wrong with them.
NC:
Speaking of being proactive, I know that you have worked a lot with, you know, tweens and teens, and you were talking a little bit about how sixth graders sometimes feel that they're abnormal in some way. And what's something that you hear often from teenagers, you know, what they're going through in terms of sexual health and what they wanna know and what they seem to be most preoccupied by once they're a teenager,
JF:
Honestly, the question still stems, you know, on am I normal? It just sounds different. What's the common age for, you know, you to start shaving, is it normal for my penis to be this size? Is it okay for me to get birth control now, all of those really have the same roots. Am I normal? And is it common for me to want these things or to have a body that looks like this, or to access this thing at this age, they want permission. They want to know that they're not weird and they wanna make sure that they still belong, even if they see these physical changes happening. And so a lot of it is really debunking the ideas that whatever they're seeing in, you know, media sexually explicit or not is again media, which is curated it's entertainment, and it's not education, but we can't wait for them to learn about what bodies can look like by what they're seeing on screen. And assuming that they're just gonna figure out that that is not normal. We have to get in there proactively, as you said earlier, so that when they encounter, you know, such media, whether it be mainstream pornography, or even just a commercial or an ad on a billboard, they know, oh, this is art, this isn't real life.
NC:
Absolutely being critical consumers of media, right. Is so key. In speaking to that, that media piece you know, there are so many confusing things that even a small child might see. As you said, in a commercial people kissing in commercials, you know, in romantic ways, or even just platonic ways. Sometimes it's difficult to explain to small children, like the difference between platonic and romantic before they have an idea of what romance is. Right. Mm-hmm, have you found any interesting ways to explain to small children the difference between like a regular friend and a girlfriend or a boyfriend?
JF:
I don't know if I'd have a specific script that allows, you know, for a parent to feel like they're clearly distinguishing the difference, and I don't know how important it is because I want them to be able to recognize red flags in any type of relationship they're in. Right. You would hope that, you know, a healthy, romantic relationship is also a healthy friendship as well. And so, you know, if it makes sense for you to talk about like love and romance through the lens of what a good friend is, they may think, oh, well, I do wanna be with my best friend forever and ever, right. Then you're like, great, that's it? Right. Mm-hmm. And when the hormones start kicking in a few years later, they might say, oh, no, I just like hanging out with them, but it doesn't make me feel a certain way.
You know, that might distract me
NC:
Going back to that media piece as well, in terms of being safe online and the things that children will come across online, not even looking for those things accidentally what are good ways to help children manage like the things that they might come across by accident? How, how do we talk to them about those things, especially if they're quite young.
JF:
Well, if you've never had quote the sex talk yet, I wouldn't wait to have it when your child has already watched mainstream porn, right. This should have been an ongoing conversation around bodies and what's normal and what a healthy relationship or friendship looks like. Right. So that if they accidentally come across this stuff one, and, and you find out you're able to tell them, Hey, it's totally normal to be curious about what you were seeing, because it's very different within what you see, you know, when we're walking around or, you know, in our life, I also don't want you to feel like that's what your body's supposed to look like, because you know how, when we're watching that Marvel movie, these are people that had to audition. These are people who have worked out a whole lot with their personal trainer or even those pictures you're seeing are actually Photoshops.
Those, aren't actually what they really look like. And remember how I'm always telling you that I want you to be safe. I want you to feel good about who you are, and I want you to experience joy. If what you're watching, doesn't give you any ideas and how to actually feel joy. You might be scared by what you watched. Then that's probably a good sign that this isn't something that's really healthy for you. You might also get the messages that, you know, your body's not good enough. That's not very affirming and not making you feel good about yourself. And a lot of the times what you're watching, because it's entertainment and not education, aren't giving you good ideas of what is safe. And so if these three things aren't getting all checked off by whatever you're watching, whether it's a PG 13 movie, you didn't tell me, you ended up watching, or you came across a popup that you didn't know was gonna have all these naked bodies and stuff.
Just remember, hold on. This, isn't my faults. And am I learning something here that actually isn't helpful to my safety or me feeling good about myself or bringing me actual joy, all three of those, those things need to be present. So with the younger ages, that's what, how the conversation can look. And then with the older ages, it's really talking a lot about how a lot of these you know, a lot of this industry is trying to get you to watch this stuff because your body is changing so quickly and they want you to see bodies that look very different to encourage you to watch more of this, or maybe even try to change your body. So it matches what theirs look like. There's a reason that it's not supposed to be watched by anyone under 18, because it's not something that's meant for, for you at the age you're at.
So then that's like middle school. And then with high school, you know, you're bringing in other aspects of how it's definitely not teaching you about healthy relationships and consent. It's not showing you safer sex practices. And it's certainly showing a lot of power dynamics, especially around races involved and how they are othered by really reducing them to a sexual object object as opposed to really valuing an entire human being for who they are. That reduction is very dehumanizing and not something we want them to also be adopting when they're not looking at the screen.
NC:
I really like what you are talking about this idea of like, sort of pulling back the curtain, like this is what these are people who made this media, this is what their goal is with this media. As we're sort of wrapping up, I'm wondering what's one misconception you would like to clear up about, you know, just in general, talking to kids of whatever age, about sexual health and sexual safety and just education about bodies.
JF:
I'll say it specifically to parents in that I think a, a misconception is that your kids aren't listening to you, they absolutely are listening to you, and they're actually listening to you more. So when you're not talking the way you're just modeling, you know, your own behaviors is teaching them a lot about how they regard themselves. So the comments that you make about other people, or the comments that you make around politics, or the comments you make about yourself, when you look in the mirror and your child is in its vicinity, right, they're listening and they're really absorbing and internalizing those messages as something that they also need to adopt. Now, when you are talking, right, it's really a matter about making it about safety, affirmation and joy. I think a lot of kids are turned off with parents, you know, scolding them, shaming them and not recognizing that their parent actually wants them to have a safe, affirming, and happy joyous life. So if you actually bring that into the conversation around sex topics and sexuality and gender topics, they're more likely to be receptive to what you have to say, because in the end, they too want to be safe. They wanna feel good about themselves and they wanna experience joy. And that's really where the two of you align. So talk about, you know, these topics through that lens where they're really gonna be able to listen because they know that you're on their team.
NC:
Yeah. Being on the same team, that's a really big deal. And so many parents that I speak with are so squeamish about having this conversation that, either they avoid it altogether or when they do bring it up, they're so nervous that their child is also so nervous seeing them in that very nervous state. I'm wondering if you have any tips just over the years that you've given to parents about just initiating such a conversation.
JF:
Well, to use that last, you know, example you were giving Dr. Coor, I would say, you know, telling your kid, Hey, this is kind of awkward for me to talk about, your grandparents never talked to me about this stuff, but I want better for you. And it's important. We have this conversation. So just right away, humanizing the awkwardness and your discomfort really allows them to see like this, isn't just my dad. This is a human being. And we forget, you know, that our children see us through this one, you know, caregiver role, when you are intersectional and have multiple multifaceted identities, you want them to see your whole self and it's okay. If it's something you don't have the answer to, or that you're struggling to share, tell them that because it allows them to feel like being vulnerable in our home is something that's safe to do here. And we have people here that are gonna continue to make it safe so that actual growth and learning can occur. So if you are nervous about something, start off saying that and say, you know, I don't really know how to say this because I just know it's something that I need to say, and it's probably not gonna come out great. But I care about your safety and I care about how you feel about yourself and I care about you experiencing joy. And that is more important than me preserving my ego
NC:
What is it that you think that parents listening today could really walk away with when it comes down to their own knowledge of sexual health for themselves, right. But then also for what they wanna be laying down for their children. What is the message that you want parents to leave here with today?
JF:
I think I would say, you know, that the parents that have the most successful conversations around sexuality are the ones who are doing the inner work to interrogate, reflect and heal from their own experiences that have really imprinted their ideas around sexuality. So it's a brief exercise for you to just consider what was your introduction to gender and sexuality? What age was that in a positive light or in a negative light? And do you want the same or something different for your own child? And so when you kind of just think about your own experience, first, it's going to inform how you start bringing up these topics. If it's coming from a place of trauma, right. That's gonna be something that's gonna also come through in your words for better or for worse, but being aware of your own lens and how it was informed is going to make these conversations a lot more real and palatable and relevant to the relationship you wanna build with your child about this.
NC:
That is so awesome. I wanna thank you so much for your time and for giving us a little taste of the work you do. And also just, I'm wondering if you can tell the listeners just where they can find some more information about you and the work that you do.
JF:
Sure. So my website is Justinefonte.com. And then if you are on social media, my Twitter and Instagram account is at I'm Justine, a F I'm also a ghostwriter to help people set their boundaries. And that's only on Instagram and that's underscore good period buys underscore.
NC:
Thank you so much for being with us.
JF:
Thanks Dr. Coor.
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I hope you enjoyed our chat!
You can learn more about Justine’s work at justinefonte.com and follow her on Instagram @imjustineaf and @_good.byes_.
You can learn more about my work with parents at www.brooklynparenttherapy.com and on Instagram at BKPARENTS.
If you have more questions about talking with kids about sexual health, or any other parenting questions or stories, leave me a message at (646) 926-3243 and be sure to let me know if it's okay to use your voice on the show. Or, send an email to parenthood@quickanddirtytips.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to Project Parenthood on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Catch you next week!