Chelsea talks with Mindy Wagner, an occupational therapy and sensory regulation expert, about understanding sensory processing challenges in children. Mindy shares how to identify sensory needs, distinguish them from behavioral issues, and manage triggers to prevent meltdowns.
Chelsea talks with Mindy Wagner, an occupational therapy and sensory regulation expert, about understanding sensory processing challenges in children. Mindy shares how to identify sensory needs, distinguish them from behavioral issues, and manage triggers to prevent meltdowns.
Project Parenthood is hosted by Chelsea Dorcich. A transcript is available as Simplecast.
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CHELSEA: Sensory input can be a mystery and even a term you may never think about until you have a child who struggles with sensory processing. Come find out what all is involved in processing sensory input and what does occupational therapy have to do with it.
Hi, welcome back to Project Parenthood. I am your host, Chelsea Dorcich, Licensed Marriage Family Therapist. I am here to join you on your conscious parenting journey, bringing more curiosity, openness, acceptance, kindness, and non judgment along the way. My goal is for us to accept what is out of our control, commit to improving our parenting life, and discover better outcomes for ourselves and our family.
I am so excited today to have a special guest on our episode, Mindy Wagner. She is a pediatric OT and Baby Steps Pediatric Therapy founder. She shares expert insights from over 18 years of supporting children with special needs. She's an alumni of Cal Poly SLO with psychology emphasis and USC OT. Mindy Wagner Mindy combines professional expertise with personal experience as a mother of three.
I'm so excited to have her on today. Mindy, thank you so much for being here today. And I think I just want to dive in, in your years of experience, what parents, tend to maybe not know enough of, or just don't, haven't been introduced to about, when it comes to either occupational therapy or sensory regulation, just what are those You know, what are those pieces that a lot of us parents are almost missing or not aware of?
MINDY: Yeah. If your child is able to process sensory information, typically, then you never even need to know about us or what we do. but if your child does have problems processing sensory information, when I say it like that, you're like, Oh, okay. But then when I say like your child's perceiving the world in a very different way than you are.
Then people are like, Oh, okay. Let me pay attention. so I think it's really important that if you think your child has some sensory needs to look into that and see exactly what they are, because if you can figure those out, then a lot of times you can avoid meltdowns or situations where things get out of control by, knowing what is going to trigger them or knowing, if they're you know, they're already a little dysregulated and then you're going to throw them into another challenging situation to just be aware of those things can really help dramatically.
CHELSEA: Yeah, definitely. I have to imagine. cause I think when we think of I heard the word meltdown, right? And we think of those things. and I know I've done an episode on just self regulation and touched briefly on the sensory, but, Sometimes we wouldn't even know that this is what's going on for them, right?
That, like this, that they're actually processing things differently and we are just assuming they're like, it's like a behavioral thing, right? Like they just don't want to.
MINDY: A hundred percent. Yes. So much. These poor babies. And, the way that you can tell is if it's behavioral or if it's a sensory thing is if say you're at home and your kid's sleeping.
And I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind when you're, having a meltdown and you act like you're going to leave the room and they stop crying. That's behavior. If they still can't calm themselves down, even though they know you're not watching them anymore, then that is probably a sensory issue.
CHELSEA: Okay. Yeah. That's good to know. That makes sense. I think, and we say sensory. this is anything like maybe touch on that where. How are they processing differently? Or where would we see this, in terms of their five senses? In terms of their, is this touch? Is this sounds? Is this, lights?
Is that all it is?
MINDY: There's so many things that, so we assess, eight different categories. So the first five, we all know. See, hearing, touch, taste, smell, all that. So for those, types of things, let's just start with, like the visual system. Okay. kids typically, if they have problems processing sensory information are either going to be over responsive or under responsive.
So if your child is having a hard time processing visual information, you might see things like if they're, hypersensitive to visual input, they might get very overwhelmed in like a room that has a lot of different things to look at or have a hard time finding, an object that's, on the floor with a lot of other toys.
And then you have the other children who are. not as responsive to visual impacts that they're actually under responsive. and those are the kids who are going to be, you're like, it's right there, it's right in front of you. Look down, that aren't, that aren't really seeing things.
And then there's auditory processing. So if you're over responsive to auditory input that's going to be kids that, any, noise they hear, even if it's not even that big of a noise or they're distracted by any noise, even if it's just the dryer going off in the other room or, and then you have the opposite, the kids who are under responsive that don't really tend to hear anything sometimes, or, there'll be a ambulance that comes by and, they're unfazed.
Kind of stuff like that can clue you in. and then for touch, like tactile processing, we see this a lot in kids who are over responsive. Those are the kids that don't like light touch. So there's the kids that you have to cut all their tags out of their clothes. You have to make sure that their seams are lined up in their shoes when they put their socks on.
Because that's really gonna bother them. And then you have kids, or if it's a younger kid, these are the babies that are just always taking off their clothes and want to be naked. And, and then the kids who are under responsive to touch, are just and not even feel it or touch something and, not even really be aware or they might even seek out feeling and touching everything because they're, they're not getting enough of that input.
And then we have taste, which can be a huge, thing for, people who have a hard time processing sensor information. You have the kids who are hypersensitive. So to taste, so they're gonna, those are going to be the kids that are like, I want better noodles. Or I want a turkey sandwich, just the bread and the meat and, very plain, bland.
The kids who are under responsive are going to be the ones who are want like tahini on their fruit and ketchup and mustard, just really flavorful, salty, sweet, high taste foods. So those kids are going to be really, if you're oversensitive to smell, those kids are going to be like, if someone's wearing perfume or, good and bad smells, they're going to have an issue with it.
It's going to be really distracting for them. And then kids. Some kids aren't bothered by that at all and don't really appear to be bothered by any smells, even if they're bad smells, okay, so then the three that it's like nobody's familiar with, unless you have a kid that has. the first one is your vestibular system, so that's your balance.
and so some kids have a really hard time with that, and so they might look clumsy sometimes. Or, If they're under responsive to vestibular input, those are going to be the kids that are like spinning all the time or and you're like, Oh my God, how are you not getting dizzy?
CHELSEA: Yeah.
MINDY: And then the kids that are over responsive to that kind of input are going to be the opposite. They're going to be the ones that are like scared to go downstairs or don't like to tip their head back when they're getting their hair washed. Stuff like that. Or go down, a slide.
CHELSEA: So that's interesting because I was just thinking how, I always think about that.
There's like certain stairs to depending on the depth or the incline of them, right? That you just assume it's like a height thing for kids, but it's actually I didn't even think about that being like the vestibular portion of that because I've totally seen that with kids.
MINDY: And it's so hard for them too, because I feel like they can't communicate what They're what's happening inside them.
That's really hard. And it's also they don't know if you've only been inside that body, you don't know how you're, supposed to feel when you go downstairs or what is supposed to be normal. The next one is that proprioceptive system. So that's like in all our muscles, we have these receptor cells and a lot of kids are under responsive to this kind of input.
And so these are the kids that are going to be like running into stuff, jumping all the time. They're just craving that heavy, deep input, like falling on purpose, crashing into stuff, crashing into other people. knowing that and then giving your child like an activity that's heavy in proprioception can help regulate them for.
CHELSEA: What's a good example of that?
Just if you don't mind while we're on that specific.
MINDY: Yeah. Oh, so heavy works, anything like carrying heavy things, pushing a laundry basket full of heavy things. Any playground stuff, monkey bars, running. a lot of kids like to be like, take pillows and squish them or wrap them up really tight in like a blanket.
There's so many, there's so many. Thanks. But the hard part is you got to know what your child needs, because if that's not an issue for your child, say your kid's fine with proprioceptive input, but they're the ones that like to spin around. You try to squish them with a pillow.
They're going to be like, Oh no, thank you. that's not going to work for them, So I think that's the hardest part is just finding out what your child's needs actually are and then going from there.
CHELSEA: Okay. And so vestibular, proprioceptive, and what's the third?
MINDY: And then the third one is basically, your ability to feel like your organs and stuff.
So you're gonna see that manifest itself in some kids. seem like they're never hungry and maybe they're not feeling that sensation of hunger or if they're having a hard time with potty training, they might not be able to localize that feeling of like when your bladder is full.
So it might show up that way.
CHELSEA: So is that, would that be something where a child who's not able to read that, is all of a sudden just starving and on the brink of like starvation or like they don't see that coming? Okay. Like the potty training, like I gotta go now. I don't even have three seconds to hold it 'cause it's now just hitting me.
Okay. Okay. Makes sense.
MINDY: Yeah. So just like the, with your bladder, your stomach's the same, way. And so for a lot of kids it's or they might not be able to really localize it, that it's like around their stomach, they're like, I feel terrible. I dunno why. Got it. Okay.
CHELSEA: Yes. Since, hence the hangry term that we all give our children when we have to read that for them.
MINDY: Yeah. And like we do that all the time, it's, parents get so concerned if, their children have some trouble processing sensory information and it's we all do. Like we just didn't have people, 40 years ago sitting down with our parents telling them this stuff.
we were just. It's late. It's fine. but. we all do twirl our hair, tap our knee or, we all do stuff to regulate ourselves that we're not even aware of.
CHELSEA: Yeah. So we all have issues. And our kids are so lucky that we actually have the education to provide, parents with these days and to be able to have these examples like you're giving and, not have to read our children's mind, but actually pick up on cues.
their body language and the antecedent. Exactly. Yeah.
MINDY: And then once you notice that and you notice what your child needs, it's so easy to go and be like, Oh, we can just make this little change and it'll be, okay. But it's, I get nervous when like you go on Amazon and there's Oh, toys for kids with autism.
And they're all like super expensive. And it's like a spinny chair. That's like a hundred dollars. And it's if that's not your kid's thing, then that's just a waste of money. You know what I mean? So I think it's. It's worth the time to if you do think your kid has some issues to go get them checked out, by an OT.
And, we can do these assessments pretty quickly. A lot of them are just parent interview. and then there's other assessments that are much more in depth, but I think, to just get started, to know like where you're at with your kid, it's not a bad idea to go get checked out if you have concerns.
CHELSEA: And I'm assuming that these are things that, Because obviously we, depending on what state you're in, there's different services birth to three and then three and up through the school district, but, that you might see some signs even under the age of three. Is that correct? Or versus, or is this more?
MINDY: Yeah, when you go back, I work with, Now it's very young Children. And you can start to see as babies, if you know what to look for. And, it's funny, a lot of parents that have kids that are diagnosed with an issue later in life, like we'll go back and look at baby videos and they're like, Oh, it is, but it's it's They're really subtle and hard to spot and, it's not something that a pediatrician even might necessarily notice in your 20 minute well visit while your kid's like freaking out because they're scared they're going to get a shot.
CHELSEA: Yeah, there's a lot of variables, so yeah, you have to be able to filter those out. okay. Yes. I was thinking when kids get to school age too, and just depending on how their classroom set up and what they're like, how long they're expected to sit in a chair and what is up on those walls. I was thinking how you're describing visual, right?
Like I've had patients who've been in classrooms that are Overwhelming that they can even like, they have to go take tests in the principal's office because this classroom is so busy that they can't even focus on what's right in front of them.
MINDY: Yeah. And for, and that's every single classroom for little kids, it's just, visual bombardment every on every single wall.
And that's awesome for most kids. But for those kids that struggle with focus and especially when there's a lot going on, but it's, an easy fix, it's just, you can put up a little trifold or just take down, when I used to work in a clinic, the room that I worked in, I had a ton of toys, but I had them all away in cupboards. So when the kid came in, there was like just a table and a chair. And that was it.
And it's a game changer. really, when you can get a kid like that to just decrease some of the visual stimulation, and that kind of brings up like a, this kind of a hot button topic right now is like eye contact. A lot of people are like, you got to make eye contact and, for someone who is hypersensitive to visual input, That might be the one thing that just pushes them over the edge and makes it so that they can't continue the conversation, so actually if you're having a hard time, if you know you're someone that gets easily overwhelmed by visual stimulation, and you're in a conversation, I think actually looking down is a great way to regulate yourself.
You're taking away that, that stimulation, but you're also staying, in, in the conversation, with that person. So that's, kind of something for parents, I think, to, Keep in mind, I know it's really popular. I've written goals for eye contacts long ago and I'm look back and I was like, what was I doing?
That was stupid. That's awesome that they are, choosing something that is subtle and they can still stay in the room with you, stay in the conversation. It's beautiful.
CHELSEA: Yes. You can be very creative with the ways to show engagement with your children and teach them whether it's like they can, the fact that they're even if it's fleeting eye contact or just like you said, if they're looking down and they, but they're not looking elsewhere or if they're touching you and letting you know, I am here with you, right?
Like just even holding your hand or something. But, yes, I agree. I used to do that back when I did behavioral therapy with children's autism. It was like, that was like, I look back at some of the things I'm like, we were expected to do with these, It's, some of them it's not even appropriate.
Like it's this is why, do we decide what is okay and not okay for behavior wise. But yeah, just letting your child be your child and then getting creative. Okay. How do we then function into society and to the classroom, into our family system?
MINDY: And I almost think that in that way, we've really let this population down, like this community down.
We, like I think we as a community should understand that some people don't want to make eye contact with you and it's, don't, it's not anything against you. It's not that they're not paying attention to you. It's not that they're disrespecting you. They just can't, And, yeah, it gets a really bad wrap and I feel like we just have a bad as a society, we just don't understand, I think, sensory processing and autism, enough that we can support all of these people, so many people, right?
CHELSEA: Yeah, it's supporting the whole child, right? That's, I agree that I think that there's a lot of high expectations when it's, It's, okay, would we rather our child be engaged and actually present hearing what we're saying or is it the social cue of eye contact? Is that more important?
Cause if they are expected to give that, they may not be able to be present and hearing what you're saying.
MINDY: A hundred percent. And eye contact is something that I've, seen it So many times I think that, with the positive reinforcement, every time they make eye contact, I think the hope is that eventually they're just going to start doing it automatically in all environments and in all situations.
And to be honest, I've not, I've never seen that happen, in 20 years. so I think that it's okay, that let's get back. And, I think once you really understand more about sensory processing and that it's, not something that you can just try harder and do it, it's just how your body is just wired a little differently.
CHELSEA: And, you, and because of that, you have to. do things a little differently. Yes. I think that was the point when I remember when I did the self regulation episode that it's, there's executive function and there's emotion regulation, but there's also sensory regulation. And when we have all three of those, and we're working super hard for our sensory input and these kids, are especially like given wherever, even in the home or just at school.
And they have these high expectations of having to regulate sensory. input. And then they're spending so much energy doing that. it's a wonder that like they can't, focus the way we expect their executive function to work or they can't regulate certain emotions that we're expecting them to be.
So it's just a lot to balance.
MINDY: It is so it's, a lot for their little bodies. And it's a lot even for, you think of a, an elementary school Age kid and it's like when they get out of school. They're a disaster because they've been trying so hard To hold it down all day and then they see you in their lab, And it's the same thing except these kids are doing it at an even more intense level.
they're having to work even harder.
CHELSEA: Yeah. So would you say that, part of our job as parents is maybe even having that reframe of, okay, when it's like, we could be saying, Oh, why do you always like this with me after school? But it'd be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you're able to feel safe with me to be able to let that all out.
And then this is where I might have to be a little bit more creative of, okay, how can we help even you out a little bit right now? Or yeah.
MINDY: That's my, my, my mantra. I'm like, Oh, you just so comfortable around me. You must've been so good at school today.
CHELSEA: So I always said, I'm like, okay, I can handle it at home.
If that means you're put together at school. Awesome.
MINDY: And yeah. one of the things that I've, seen in my kids, that I work with, is that it's really important to say you're like trying to teach them a skill and they're able to do it, whatever it is. And then you have, you're trying to have them do it again, maybe later on in the day when they're not as tired or maybe they were just.
and they're not, in the space where they can do it. it's okay to help them even though, that they can do it. I know as a parent, I had a hard time with that. Like I was like, I know you can do it. Why can't you do it now? And it's like sometimes they just don't have the capacity, the cumulative effects of all this regulation that's been going on all day, can, if you don't, Get enough time to regulate yourself.
It can just keep building, especially if you're trying to get them to do something when they're tired or, and so it's okay to help your put their shoes on. If you can tell they're in a, rough space and you know that they can do it, but don't feel bad that you're enabling them or that you're not Making them be independent because there are some times where you have to look at the task and then you have to look at where they are at that moment and don't beat yourself up about, if you know your kid can put their pajamas on, but they're just can't do it at that moment, that is okay to help them out and don't feel bad about it.
CHELSEA: Yeah. Because if anything, he'd look at that as let's give them a moment of success instead of this, let's not have the next 15 minutes of frustration and it doesn't help anyone.
MINDY: It really doesn't everyone. So it's cause.
CHELSEA: No, I think that's so important.
MINDY: Wait for a time. When they're, in a better space to have them do more challenging.
CHELSEA: Yeah. No, I love them I think you touched on important things I think as parents we tend to put that pressure on ourselves or just that expectation that like oh gosh I'm giving in right now or like you said enabling and I don't like, it's a bit to stick strong and be consistent. But it's also we have to be realistic that there's just like we have moments of up and down, our kids are going to have moments where they, it's just too much for them in that moment.
And it's not enabling them. It's actually just, we're giving them a little bit more scaffolding or more support in that moment.
MINDY: 100%. And, I'll, analogy that I tell a lot of my parents is like with glasses, right? If you're nearsighted, we're going to get you some glasses. we're not going to be like, just try harder.
You can do it. Come on.
MINDY: And so it's not, when you think of it like that. And I think that's why a lot of, the term sensory diet has had its moment. And, it's because it's it makes it sound like it's a temporary thing. Oh, you just wear these glasses for a couple months and then you'll be good.
And it's that's not really how it works. so when you think of it like that, as this is more of like a modification that. you're going to have the foreseeable future and it's not something, maybe you don't need to wear your glasses all the time, but you probably have them with you if you need them.
And that's exactly how these things work. Strategies are for these kids, so maybe I can make eye contact with you, until I get to maybe a topic I don't feel as comfortable, and then I'm overwhelmed and yeah, I'm gonna look down and keep talking. just to have those little tricks in your bag that you can pull out.
so it doesn't end up being like. You're like screaming, running out of the room situation.
CHELSEA: No, I love that analogy. That's so true. That, and it makes sense. Cause like when I was teaching special ed, it was sensory diet. It was such a big term, but it makes so much more sense to think of it that way that this is just, this is like a pair of glasses, right?
yeah, I love that, that you're going to have these things. And as parents, we're going to have. These tools available to our kids and, it's not by any means, a set timeframe. It's just, this is whatever, when they need it to succeed, they're going to have it available.
MINDY: Exactly. And some days they're going to need nothing and some days they're going to need a lot more.
And so that's the other thing too, where it's it's not going to be like, do these exercises, whatever every day at this time, it's some days they won't need that. And some days they're, that's all they're going to need, and so it's, Yeah, it's so variable on the child. That makes sense.
CHELSEA: So yeah, meeting your child where they are in that moment. It doesn't, we're not going to have a, as much as we all want that textbook that has it planned out from minute by minute or hour to hour, what we're supposed to do with our kids. It's just, it's every, moment is going to be a little bit different than what they need.
MINDY: Yeah, exactly. And just, there's just don't beat yourself up, give yourself some grace. This is not a thing that, anyone's ever been taught about their kids. And so unless you have a problem with this and you learn about it, you're, not going to know about it. It's not like they teach you at the hospital, like all the other stuff, when you're taking all those classes.
CHELSEA: Absolutely. I was like, I would not know what this was. If I. I had not taught special ed from birth to five. I would not know half of this stuff. I wouldn't even like some of the terms. I'd be like, what is that? And like you said, unless you're actually exposed to it, unless there is a high need for it, this isn't like common knowledge that we're just chatting about over coffee.
MINDY: Yeah. Yeah. and it's a lot of things that, you know, people. no one's ever taken the parents down to actually really explain why this is happening or what's going on with their child. And I think that's so empowering for the parent to know, what my child's triggers are, and, so that eventually, They can teach the child what their own triggers are and how to advocate for themselves and what their needs are.
But, I think the parents understanding is like the most important thing. I have I made a handout, in English and Spanish for my families that, a lot of them have a hard time when their kids are stimming. and they're like, want it to stop. And I'm like, Oh, let's like talk more about what it actually is and that it's actually, they're like meeting their needs in, like automatically they're assessing their own needs, regulating themselves.
it's actually, that's the goal. that's what we want them to do. So it's just a lot of, not any of this is intuitive. And so it's just a lot of, education and like learning about it, which we haven't, had in our society because a lot of people, until the eighties were not even In public.
CHELSEA: So it's definitely, it's, I love that too, just the empowerment and education, just to be able as a parent, even, and this is what I see in my office too, is like looking at what, okay, but what is it bringing up for you if your child is doing that and it's making you uncomfortable, but then if they have that educational piece that say okay, this is why they're doing it.
And this is what it's actually doing for them. And this is where. Okay. It's actually a good thing because they're learning that self regulation and then maybe it's not so much You know the feelings that are coming up and also validating those parents like your parents that are going through this It is having an open mind and having compassion like you said in grace and not being judgmental on either yourself or your child but just that this is what it is.
MINDY: Yeah, exactly and it's hard I feel like Because, we don't, our society doesn't really understand autism.
It's really hard for families to go out in public. because not that they can't parent their child, but parenting a child who's perceiving the world much differently, it looks different. And, a lot of families I found won't go do things out in the community, go run errands, go out to eat because People just give them dirty looks and think they're terrible parents.
And that is where I feel like as a society, we've just completely failed this community because they should be like, that's awesome that they brought them out. They're doing exactly what they should be doing. And they don't need your meemaw, like staring them down at Target. So it's just, it's, it's a lot of stuff like that where I think as we just all need to know more about it.
CHELSEA: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, I think the education and probably even a village to write just to be able to have that community of, people that can really empathize and understand what's going on.
MINDY: And yeah, those parents are, they're going through it and they're like, I am always just blown away, like the kids are so cute and amazing, but the parents are the ones that I'm just like, wow, they blow me away.
Cause it is, so hard to have a kid with any kind of special needs, and I think if you have it, typical child, like I'm so happy for you, but like you have no right, unless you are around day in and day out with someone who has a child with special needs. it's, I don't, it's, they're warriors.
I don't understand how they, it's amazing. 100%.
CHELSEA: Oh my gosh. thank you so much, Mindy, for being here today and talking to all this stuff that I feel like you said, we just, we don't talk about enough, so I'm so glad we can have this, platform and episode for people to start really getting, more information and feeling comfortable seeking out help if need be.
MINDY: Yeah. Thank you, Chelsea.
CHELSEA: That's it for this week's edition of Project Parenthood. Remember to be curious, open, accepting, kind, and nonjudgmental on your conscious parenting journey. If you have any questions about this episode, about your parenting journey, and or topics you would like to hear more about, please reach out to parenthood at quickanddirtytips.com or leave a message at 646 926 3243. Project Parenthood is a Quick and Dirty Tips podcast. Thanks to the team at Quick and Dirty Tips, Holly Hutchings, Davina Tomlin, Morgan Christianson, and Brannan Goetschius. May you be happy, safe and protected, healthy and strong, and live with ease.